PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Biab for iPad

Something like this maybe ?

Yes but it needs the ability to play song files. Ipads and Android tablet can have up to half a TB memory so it needs to be able to hold some kind of modified .SGU files with some sort of RT/RDs that are light weight and a decent Midi synth. Imagine the ability to load 30 or 40 songs for a night gig. Bluetooth to your PA and your light weight system is ready.

You would have the m4a RealTracks/Drums on an SD card, what's that about 250GB ?

A few days ago I was looking a 1TB SD cards.
They seem rather prone to misbehaviour, though. My dashcam uses one and I have to reformat it regularly.

iPad can not use SD Cards. You may be able to use an SSD with a USB3 connection.

I say USB3 because the lightning connector has probably now been changed. I still have a 3rd gen iPad Pro.

Kevin

I like the idea. Newer iPad can have 512 memories and most androids have SSD slots to a few good options, not to forget MS surface tablets.

More energy needs to be put into the JUCE BBPlugin/Plugin Standalone/Live Arranger giving Win/Lin/Mac/iOS/Android:
The writing is on the wall.
https://www.apple.com/logic-pro-for-ipad/


Create and edit chord progressions in the Chord Track while your Session Players follow along.

mcity.

looks v nice. as well as/ great m4.
my thinking is what music production load can be handled by ip pro ?
in terms of plugins and track count ? i cant find info yet.
and where does this leave mac users with higher end macs ?
what im wondering is why should someone buy a higher end mac if ip pro can handle large number track and plugin vsti counts etc ?

why im glad re this announcement is hopefully it will force pc processor prices down. that m4 looks stunning re useing nanometer fab tech.
interesting times..

happiness.

om 🇨🇦 🇬🇧

I don't think iPad or tablet apps are going to replace larger software on PCs and Macs. It just gives a nice compact product to do live shows and work on the run. Logic as MCity is showing there is a Mac only product and is releasing a version with session players. One downside is that Logic is not very far back compatible. My version of mac from 2013 is no longer supported SO i had to abandon Logic pro. What i think PipeCity is trying to show is that the industry is heading towards AI for these types of products. BiaB and RB, will not be fully following that path as it would require a rather large rewrite towards more modern programming language. The plugin is already there to some degree, so it is the logical candidate.

We will never, i repeat NEVER see PGM abandon BiaB in favor of the Plugin as it will not bring in enough revenue to compare with BiaB. What we can hope for is that Peter can see that the Plugin does deserve to be aggressively developed to compete with these other products. It can be a bridge into the future. I agree with this assumption. If the plugin could be developed to allow as a product that creates content in any DAW then has a standalone app where one can play the content live or as needed on either a laptop or tablet then PGM would have something powerful and unique.

What comes of this is totally up to them. Continuing down the current path will keep BiaB moving along it's slow steady path but will not allow the plethora of older bugs and workflow issues to be addressed as needed. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I was against this live arranger idea at first. I wanted the plugin to stay simple and be something for just adding BiaB content to the users DAW in conjunction with BiaB as a little brother lite app. How ever after that last two years of development where some incredible features have been added to the main program, but at the cost of not addressing super important issues. 255 limit, VST3, and about 20 or 30 other very important things that need immediate attention, I am seeing that some things need to be changed. I do not think that BiaB needs to be rewritten but what it needs is the following.

1. a full year of no new features, just fix 50 old issues, and add fresh new RT/RD content.

2. turn the hounds loose on them plugin. fix it so it works as it does with reaper in all DAWs. add the ability for work in any OS. and add the modern MultiRiff, Multipicker, and free it from the Band in a box folder. I am not sure exactly how that can be done as i am not a programmer but whatever it takes do it. Cut it loose from being a free app and charge $100 for it to offset any loss from slowing down BiaB.

I am sure MLine can add more to this as he seems to have a picture of what can be done in his head. One thing for sure we will never know what is possible until PGM opens up and shares what they know is possible and what is not. They truly know the inner workings of the product and it's code structure. PGM has traditionally not been very open about long term goals and possibilities they usually keep things like this close to the hip. Sharing only what they feel we need to know. I hope they will take 10 minutes and share with those who truly care about this great product and what they plan on doing so we can stop talking about and either support them or not. but we can all relax and enjoy the ride.

Having said what i said about i have to add that my iPad will not even download the new Logic app. It requires 17.0 or better. I can't get there. Typical of Apple and Logic to outrun the equipment out there. very sad. So if you don't run out and buy the latest equipment every time they make a big change you are just out of luck. I think Logic is a Un logical choice to use as an example. One thing we have to be careful of is using concepts that on paper seem great but in reality, are just around the corner and not reachable yet. Still the Plugin needs some love and attention, and BiaB needs a real good cleaning. Please stop adding new stuff until the older stuff works properly it is getting frustrating to all who support you each and every year. We love the program but want it work as advertised.

Respectfully your friend.

Rob.

all good points.

its sad that people have to keep on doling out money and older.macs are essentially orphans. its a clever marketing strategy i saw over the years used as i worked in tech and i guess apple r n d would argue they need the income to bring out new groovy products...haveing worked for a computer manufacturer
im sympathetic to the fact that r n d can chew up capital.

but otoh my concern is the poor song creator in a poor country who bought a apple product awhile back...but cant afford now to rebuy. capitalism at work sadly.
this is a factor thats stopped me going mac ie obsolesence as well as pricing....much as i love what apple have done with processor technology. ie M series.
the new ipad pro isnt exactly cheap costing 1200 bucks or more ?
whereas my new ryzen 7 pc with m2 tech costing 400 bucks is no slouch and handles all i throw at it ..and you should see how fast it handles bb/rb .
im happy. (kudos to gordon for turning me onto mini pcs which i thought might not be able to handle work load.).

but the big challenge for apple and one im waiting with bated breath to see how they handle and the bane of all processor manufacturers is ramping up processor technology and performance given the elephant in the room...ie the laws of physics.
its gonna be interesting to see how things play out given this limitation....plus read up sometime about potential competitors eg snapdragon and others....lots of future fun.

as to pg's plugin strategy...i remain concerned about this haveing seen first hand what can happen when one developes products to work with third party products which one has no control over.
specifically one might be caught in constant upgrades to keep up with
changes in the third party products.
i realise that loads of users want this re their fav daws but the devils in the
technical implementation details..and i think pg should be given some slack in this regard. i suspect its no walk in the park.

happiness.

om

JAOM, there is a lot of wisdom in what you are saying. BiaB for example it what it is, a 30 year old program written in another time. It is still super capable. It has the ability to do so much and most of us never even scratch the surface of it's capabilities. The old Delphi programing is the root of its existence. There is no doubt in my mind that it will remain that way in the foreseeable future. there is little chance it will be rewritten. In the big picture that does not matter. As i said above just fix the older issues and make the current features work as expected all around. Stabilize the product and each year add a few feature upgrades and a load of new fresh content. Refine the content each year, make RT and RD design more focused on the future. Don't focus on new features focus on better existing features. People will buy the upgrades to get the content add ons.

This would buy out time to focus also on the plugin as a new level companion. With less time spent each year on "50" new features PGM would have more time for these other things. I bet if we did a poll more people would want content and existing feature fixes than new features. I bet it would not even be close. this would make both the Win and Mac cycle shorter and more targeted. Spend the extra time creating a better and more complete Pugin based on the newer programming that Sir Pipesalot talks about. See that MCity i just knighted you! What say YE!

Rob.

just watching uk premier league soccer on nbc...yay my team west ham won today...lol.
yep.i agree...fix up bb....

fyi in tech the dream of any tech company is to build a product no other product can touch...ie a 'true market slayer'.
in this vein i hope pg realise the potential of bb new wonderfull tracks view to be a 'market slayer'...
the KEY being imho what pg does with new tracks view from hereon out.
do it right and it would be amazing..and musos would flock to it imho as well people like myself might say 'i dont need any other music app'....do it wrong...ill leave you to draw your own conclusions.
the ramifications of this being who is gonna need anything else.
im assuming of course user 'niggles' eg see the 6/8 thread being one..are fixed.

its gonna be a fun ride...and i hope pg win out....they have lots of loyal users many tech companies would love to have.
as to apple...in selling product...there are often two approaches..
sell a ton of product by keeping prices low. i call this the ford model T
strategy...OR...sell at a higher price with better profit margins...
but at the expense of selling less product.
fyi re the latter..my wife and i wont be going toyota again much as we like the brand because prices have just increased so much.
this has resulted in competitors taking market share from toyota.
And we see such in our region....fewer new toyotas and more cheaper competitors.


happiness.

om 🇨🇦 🇬🇧

Yep I have a 2018 IMac and it does not have the M silicone chip so it will not be able to use some of the new features of Logic Pro 11. I have Rip X so I do not really need a stem splitter and I have a ton of analog console and saturation plugins so it wont kill me. My ipads are generation 6 with 32 gb so I am behind there as well.
Brian

I would be THRILLED with an iPad app that can just PLAY BIAB format files (transposed, actual and notation) and allow me to use my SWAM instruments in MIDI Thru.) Real-time harmonization as in the Windows version would be icing on the cake.) Even with Thunderbolt ports the latency on Windows can be horrible using a controller unless I add an external ASIO box like a MOTU.) My iPad has NO noticeable latency, even with BT MIDI.

The main point of all this is not getting PG users to buy Logic on an iPad but look at the potential of the JUCE Plugin,
If apple have done this will not other companies follow with similar now, where will this leave PG ?
"Create and edit chord progressions in the Chord Track while your Session Players follow along."

"More energy needs to be put into the JUCE BBPlugin/Plugin Standalone/Live Arranger giving Win/Lin/Mac/iOS/Android:
The writing is on the wall."
How much would you spend on a new iPad with Biab Live Arranger compared to a RealTracks Live Arranger keyboard ?
I can't see how there is a sustainable future with 6 months programing on Win then another 6 months programing on Mac doing the same thing.
I'll ask again, do you think double programing is a good thing, will it last 10-20 years down the track ?

Example: Still Waiting for Current Fixes Needed for 6.0.13 (Reaper)
It can't be fixed because they are working on the Mac for last 5 months so there is no one to program BBW4 that it needs before anything can be done with the JUCE Plugin. It's all wrong how it all works, or doesn't work.
That's why I say "the writing is on the wall".

You are correct sir, but this is how it is ad will be. i wish it were different but it has become apparent it will not change at least for the foreseeable future so all we can do is roll with the punches and use the tools for what they currently do. You have done a lot, as have others of us in different ways but the song remains the same.

Or as other programs get better move on to them. Some of us have now for different time signatures.


And that is the problem.

Don't get the idea that I hate BiaB. I don't and most of my songs start in it. I just want it to reach the standards of the music community and match or exceed other music software products.

Current way the Plugin works with old BBW4:




How the Plugin needs to work, self-contained crossplatform Plugin/Plugin Standalone/Live Arranger Win,Mac,Lin,iOS,Android:
JUCE is a cross platform framework allowing a single codebase to compile to native applications and plug-ins with the same user experience on Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS and Android, across both desktop and mobile. Native applications can be launched in the iOS and Android device simulators to simplify testing and debugging, and can be packaged up for distribution within the mobile app stores.

Is that actual writing on that wall ?

PG would have to go the JUCE way to get a Linux version otherwise they would need another 6 months in a year to make the Linux version, so you would need a 18 month year, 24 months for iPad, 30 months for Android also......
Going JUCE will give iPad/Android as well all at the same time.
If these run, Biab should run:
The Top 4 DAWs for iPad
Best DAW for Android

It all just seems like a no brainer, I really can't see Biab lasting into the future how it is now without development of something new in parallel behind the scenes. After seeing Logic for iPad with a chord track and AI session musicians that play along to it, the writing is most definitely on the wall.

Android
FL Studio Mobile



Bandlab



N-Track Studio



Cubasis



Audio Evolution

iPad
Auria



Cubasis



GarageBand



Fl Studio



Logic

Other companies have all the above apps for iOS/Android, is this flogging a dead horse as others keep telling me that PG should dare think of anything like that ? Should they try and string out another 10-20 years how it is currently ?
They say PG has to split Win/Mac sales bi-annually as they could not handle the number of customers all buying in December ?? I don't know if other companies have this "problem" ?

Is this a dead horse ?

mcity.

nice graphics.
my only concerns re ipad are as follows..

..cost.
..even though the new ipads use the lovely M series processors can they handle some studios needs for high track and plugin counts ?
what i mean is if ipad can do it all who is gonna buy the very nice higher end macs and cheese graters ?

i would love to know what are the day to day song production and performance limitations of the new
ipads ? and where does this leave the mac mini ?

only pg can answer if its possible conceptually for them to make their apps run on ipads. viva la rb for ipad...lol.

happiness.

om

As I have shown with all these iPad and Android apps they are doing the same thing as Biab would need to do.
It's not saying an ipad can do it all, you don't need a desktop, but you can perform Live with it or you can create up songs/ideas on the fly traveling on the train into London each day, then transfer the frozen songs from your m4a iPad/Android to your desktop Linux/Mac/Win with wav file RealTracks.
Look at the price of a new iPad compared to having to fork out for a new Ketron Live Arranger Keyboard $5000 or and iPad M4 $1000.
"only pg can answer if its possible conceptually for them to make their apps run on ipads." that's not rocket science that only PG can explain to us poor users, I have shown Reaper opening frozen wma/m4a/wav/flac/mp3 SGU files better than RealBand, the way is now implemented in the BBPlugin yet we are still waiting for fixes from 6 months ago. If we all had to wait for PG to do the right thing, make big leaps and initiate features available in other audio apps without a bit (lot) of pushing they would still be in the 90's. Don't just sit back and wait for the farmer to feed the chickens at xmas time and take whatever you are given. Don't sit back when the farmer says his time signatures are correct and the rest of the world is wrong.

mcity.

i'm not disagreeing...you make fair comments.

ive looked closely at the ipad pro mainly because of the m series lovely cpu's. but it does have competition. for example some users on these forums have used and still use el cheapo win portable refurb lappies. which are no slouches and if chosen wisely one can get pretty powerfull processors and ssd's for 200 bucks or so.
my old refurb could do a ton of tracks.
in addition the market is flooded with off lease win refurbs so the user has lots of choice if one googles for example 'powerfull refurb win laptop with ssd and lots of ram'.

in summary i can see mac users getting an.ipad to sketch out song ideas...but i'm not sure win users are willing to pay 800 bucks extra to get a ipad pro over a cheap portable win refurb lappie.

crikey also on amazon one can see even new hold in ones hand mini pc's for under 200 bucks. they arent as powerfull as my 400 bucker ryzen 7 pc but im sure properly set up and optimised they will get the job done. lets not also forget that pc replacement parts are often dirt cheap. crikey i have a m2 ssd in an enclosure here that bb and rb reside on that cost just 60 bucks and bb 2024 gen times are a blink of an eye. so why should i buy a ipad pro for an extra 800 bucks ? much as i like the processor.

in summary yes your correct if pg had versions for ipad pro this would be successfull...but im not sure how much success...AND lets not forget apple refurb lappies can be had for cheap. just other day i saw a super nice mac lappie refurb for 300 bucks or so that only a few years back people were useing for music production.

in summary im trying to understand the cost benefit of going ipad pro given the lesser cost win and mac portable lappie options or even an under 200 bucks hold in the palm of your hand mini win pc of course properly optimised for music production with low dpc etc etc.

respect.

om 🇨🇦🇨🇦 🇬🇧🇬🇧

iOS is what matters, not iPad vs pc.

Tablet/phone os and apps seem to be the future.

Biab should play in that world.

I suspect that what they couldn't handle is the amount of support and bug-fixing they have to do on all those new features each year on the two platforms.

MrGeeze.

im not disagreeing that bb should play in the tablet/phone/ios etc world..
but with a caveat..is that tech powerfull enough yet ?
my tablet certainly isnt...my wife just got a new fab phone she loves but i dont think its architecture is powerfull enough yet to handle complex music production tasks.
its certainly in the future once these devices get more powerfull..i just dont feel the time is right now.

if a product isnt capable of handling processor load and/or for example pg's large library of content i wonder if people will get disillusioned and go back to what they use now because of compromises that they would have to make.with maybe fewer features available.
ive seen this many times in the past...people jumping on the latest and greatest 'in' tech only to cast it aside out of frustration.

once in industry we tried at the behest of users to cram lots of capability into a device...the problem being we couldnt cram in everything users wanted...so users got frustrated.
in the same way IF pg are contemplating tablet/ios bb versions they have the same conundrum...how much can be done with current tech
to make users happy.

for example a mini cooper car is usefull but for only a limited number of people to get from a to b.

happiness.

om 🇨🇦🇨🇦 🇬🇧🇬🇧

What it all shows above is major companies supporting iPad and Android DAW's.
I would not buy one as I have no use really for it, BUT there is a massive market for them, why else would these companies create them.
Was PG first out there, no, they only had the server apps where you had to have the bbserver running at home that the app connects to.

This is the way I go, and I can even install Mac on Windows hardware with OpenCore, my mum was brought up in Kent during the war, so she is always going to secondhand shops looking for bargains, so that's where I get it from, maybe you too:

LOL that'd be right

I've spent so much time here trying to improve things while other things seem to have just gone way ahead and beyond:

I haven’t read all the comments so accept my apologies if this has already been discussed.

I play at a farmers market on Saturdays and use my iPad bluetoothed to my buskers speaker.

This is what I do: I get the BIAB sgu files like I want (in the right key and sometimes with a capo), put the lyrics in, save it as a video and then copy the video to my iPad. Works very well. My only gripes are that when I have a midi part (like a lead riff) then saving as a video does not include the midi track. Also, it exports to avi format which takes up a lot of space on my iPad so I normally convert the video to mp4 before copying to my iPad.

d

I already do that. I've done it for near a decade, including bluetooth.
I just don't do it in BIAB.
I do Build the backing track arrangement in BIAB
Add tracks from BIAB and mix master in the DAW. If I need something else I add it in the DAW.
Output 320kpbs mp3 from DAW.
Anytune Pro (IOS/Android) for Song library management, Playback, Setlist, loop sections, etc
Bluetooth to PA system
Bluetooth to footpedal (blueboard) to control playback and looping.

Slick & easy.
2 trips to load in and out.
Backup is my phone. Carry a cable or two if I have a bluetooth problem. Never have almost 10 years.

Sgu's and BIAB on stage is just not a good, efficient fit.
BIAB is the right tool in the studio with your DAW, just not on the bandstand.

All this yak-yak-yak ignores a basic fact: At the moment, BIAB for iPad is not possible. Why? BIAB on the Mac requires an Intel processor or Rosetta II over Apple Silicon. iPads never ran on Intel so there is no reason for Apple to port over Rosetta II.

When BIAB becomes Apple Silicon Native on the Mac (2025 please, please, please?), only then will it be possible to port it over to AS iPads.

When Apple ported Logic Pro and FinalCut over to AS iPads last year, Apple finally broke their longstanding rule that iPad apps had to run on all current iPads. This has allowed developers to build applications that run only on the M1–4 chips. It's about damned time.



Multiply that how many times for iPad and Android? I can't bewgin to guess.

As for Android, many developers are on record stating that certain iPadOS apps are unlikely to ever port over. When it's Yamaha (Steinberg) and Fender (PreSonus), people should pay attention. The issue is that, with so many "flavors" of Android OS to support, it's seen as a pain and drain on Support resources. iPadOS is less taxing.

I imagine that ARM processors for Android tablets are coming seeing that PC portables are now on the market. With any luck, Google will unify the OS for these machines and reign in the clown car that exists now. When that happens, pro level, complex apps will become available as developers feel more comfortable developing for and supporting the platform. Lord knows, the customer base is chomping at the bit.

Then there's the issue of ROI. Tablet users of all stripes have come to expect cheap apps as their entitlement. That's a marketing issue for PG Music, none of us, and all the armchair speculation that goes on does not change this.

The BB Plugin Standalone would be good for that as it loads all the tracks in as wav instructions only and plays direct.
It has "Save State" then "Load State" that open and play instantly. Add a Saved Song Playlist to it. You will have to wait a while to try this on Mac as the are just going into the programming room now for the next 6 months to copy all the Win code over to Mac. But the crossplatform JUCE BB Plugin/Plugin Standalone for Mac is ready now !