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I post Reaper videos/gif/pics to show how modern things should work, this should give ideas to users that can be applied to Biab. MC, I have to say that most of what you say is not making any sense to me. I fail to see the relevance of all your Reaper posts. FWIW, I use Studio One and am more than happy with it; it does everything I need and I've barely scratched its surface. Make no mistake, I have zero interest in Reaper at this time, especially when I see none of your Reaper work on the Showcase. Put some quality work on the Showcase and maybe I'll have curiosity.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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"It's too far behind as it is to be thinking that lip stick will fix it."
While BIAB has quite a few shortcomings, 2024 update proved that we can get away from modal workflow, that regenerations can be MUCH faster and content (MTP) library finally is standardized. If most known bugs fixed + features completed, redundancy minimized, workflow and GUI tightened, it should make a significant impact. If that maintenance is the "lipstick", let it be. I don't mind a pretty BIAB.
P.S. Please don't go into Live Arranger as I explained earlier why it can't be easily achieved using existing RTs/RDs/SuperMidi/Loops/Midi tracks. You will end up at the fork where you will simply either:
A) loose ability to regenerate new material or B) every time style will play differently (musically).
It's doable, but Arranger styles will have to be (very) manually produced as separate format with the "best" parts chosen. And that "best" is very subjective.
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I post Reaper videos/gif/pics to show how modern things should work, this should give ideas to users that can be applied to Biab. MC, I have to say that most of what you say is not making any sense to me. I fail to see the relevance of all your Reaper posts. FWIW, I use Studio One and am more than happy with it; it does everything I need and I've barely scratched its surface. Make no mistake, I have zero interest in Reaper at this time, especially when I see none of your Reaper work on the Showcase. Put some quality work on the Showcase and maybe I'll have curiosity. This says everything as to why you need to think bigger with Biab, because there is zero understanding and zero interest in the Reaper posts Biab can't be helped and will remain in the 90's with lip stick. Can I play wma direct in Studio One, NO Can I import Biab frozen SGU track sections into Studio One, NO I have made lots of scripts for Studio One, don't you think if it was possible I would not do the same for Studio One as I did with Reaper, do you think I haven't tried ? How do you expect to apply zero interest and zero understanding to make Biab better ? Get wisdom, get understanding then you can improve Biab. If I come from Logic or Reaper what are you going to give me in Biab that will really get me ? nostalgia ? childhood memories ? "Make no mistake, I have zero interest in Reaper at this time, especially when I see none of your Reaper work on the Showcase." Life's Short (Video Render) Time Will Tell (Video Render) Aired on CMT 2010 Can you guys not see the whole story now as to why Biab has been stuck in the past ? You think from the get-go there has not been knocking of suggestions from the day I came here with users fighting like crazy with protectionism keeping it in the time warp past ? Even after all this programming language upgrade delphi to c++ [CONFIRMED]
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..P.S. Please don't go into Live Arranger as I explained earlier why it can't be easily achieved using existing RTs/RDs/SuperMidi/Loops/Midi tracks. You will end up at the fork where you will simply either:
A) loose ability to regenerate new material or B) every time style will play differently (musically).
It's doable, but Arranger styles will have to be (very) manually produced as separate format with the "best" parts chosen. And that "best" is very subjective. Try Reaper, get wisdom, get understanding then come back and talk to me, until then just use lipstick to draw me in.
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Muso, you obviously didn't get what I was saying. Arrangers have pre-dictated sections. They are not randomized. Given current workflow/structure defaulting on particular segments of RT's to map to arranger section you will be brutally limiting / freezing that section for arranger part. What if it can be made better through partial Regen, whole Regen or manual manipulation? How will arranger be handling that??? To make anything useful of this concept, every style has to be VERY manually curated, and even then it might not be the "right" generation user is after. Or "B" you will have arranger parts generated/played differently every time. Who would want that?
P.S. I have Reaper, it is not my DAW of choice. As I mentioned, try requesting a separate Reaper forum section, I will support that idea. If granted, you will spread your Reaper wisdom without polluting other threads where people have no interest in it, focusing on folks who care to know what Reaper does and what it doesn't.
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If you don't understand how Biab works, and you don't understand how Reaper works, how can you help Biab, is it not the blind leading the blind ?
Can we go over to the apple forum and sell them on the ideas you have for Biab ? maybe they will decide to have a devolution in technology.
And you guys still can't see why Biab is stuck in the past ?
Is it really a baffling mystery ?
If it's nostaligiaware you want I can fully understand.
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I don't care how Reaper works. I have no interest in Reaper. (as I mentioned earlier)
BIAB randomizes generations - bits of recorded takes unless frozen. Sometimes you get decent results per X bars, sometimes you have to assemble from different parts. What to not understand here? In your version of "arranger" you show opened audio files marked/mapped for individual arranger part. Who decided that those are the best choices for that specific arranger part? You - dear musocity! Grooves can change significantly musically if proper partial or whole generations are applied. Are you the ultimate decider on what would work best for arranger Part A, Part B, etc?
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You have UJAM, you have NI Session Guitars these work as Live Arrangers, you have Ketron Live Arranger Keyboard. They have SOURCE files.
There is no reason why Biab cannot do the same from SOURCE files. Did you even try the SFZ files I uploaded ?
If you have no interest or understanding in Reaper then you can't help with Biab, and certainly not with Logic and iPad, again the writing is on the wall.
If you want business as usual, keeping Biab in the time warp past, then please by all means, keep doing what you are doing and don't look deeper into things, limit it all to the limit you know, don't go beyond whatever you do, heaven forbid if you wake up in the middle of the night with a revelation.
If anymore users come here with ideas that are beyond your limit of understanding, get rid of them, that'll work, that is the best thing to keep it way behind.
Don't seek and you will find, Don't knock and it will be opened.
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musocity,
apples vs oranges. Ujam groove patterns ARE mapped to specific key switches and they are "shorts". They were manually curated. Randomization is a very manual process in Ujam products. We are talking about complete multi instrumental segments here. People (at least most I know) who use physical arrangers for backing, have no interest in deep programming. They want to style to just play and be the best it can be. I am not saying this is not possible with BIAB content, I am saying it will be a very manual process of creating such styles with the best takes for specific parts. Not only these specialized styles have to be made, a very user friendly editor has to be in place, specifically designed to alter styles (grooves, instruments, volume, FX etc.) But the main thing, if one day it will be considered, it should have strong feedback from people who professionally use arranger keyboards. Keeping in check THEIR needs (not mine or yours).
I don't wake up in the middle of the night by "revelations" you are describing. I maintain that pre-requisite to any significant additions should start with addressing current issues, unfinished features, redundancy check and focus on workflow. From the Poll thread, it is clearly evident that most folks want exactly that. At least for now.
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I don't know about most of what is being discussed here .... Nor do I care. I just want to be able to use BB to make the tracks I want and for them to sound like professional players doing it.
That's as complicated or as simple as I want it to be.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Herb, topic got derailed by "Reaper can do it better" and has little to nothing to do with original intentions. If you think that BIAB doesn't need any improvements, sure that is a valid view.
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 06/03/24 04:45 AM.
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Edit: For user interfaces I often used to make movie-type storyboards, sketched out by hand for people to consider, critique, draw and write over. We think in similar ways. I've used storyboards and flow diagrams on the conference room whiteboard to do exactly that; consider, critique, communicate, draw and write over. I wonder how applicable a storyboard would be for smooth music-creation workflows using BiaB. I'm guessing more than one would be needed to address the different ways BiaB is used.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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I don't know about most of what is being discussed here .... Nor do I care. I just want to be able to use BB to make the tracks I want and for them to sound like professional players doing it.
That's as complicated or as simple as I want it to be. +1. For Decades (truly) BIAB was without peer in its niche in the industry. Not anymore. It’s still a leader but others are out there, others now deliver capabilities that some of us think would be great to have in BIAB. For example, the ability to modify the performance of an individual AI musician as demonstrated by AAPL in the latest release of Logic Pro to me is a great thing. I want that. I would no longer need 237 Bossa Nova styles but only 1 or 2 (or even 5) and then I could tweak each player till my hearts content. I could modify the accompanying midi if I wanted even more control. Definitely a great thing to someone who uses BIAB 99% to produce backing tracks. I continue to believe that the standalone Win/Mac version of BIAB has a limited future. I feel it should die a graceful death as its users graze out in the far pastures. The plugin is the future. Others much wiser than me (Native Instruments, ToonTrack, etc)have already demonstrated this in spades. The mechanics of how they PG Music does it is, to me, none of our business. It’s only important that they do. PG Music wants serious $$$ every year for the product. They need to continue to demonstrate its worth that $$$. Even if they write it in Fortran.
Last edited by mrgeeze; 06/03/24 05:19 AM.
biab2024(Mac) Latest Build
Mac OS Sequoia 15.0.1
Apple M2 pro 32GB Ram
Logic Pro 11
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There is a thing called RDS (Reaper Derangement Syndrome).
Because I show Reaper working with Biab content 1000 times better than it can in Biab this is somehow sacrilegious. Rather than LEARNING from the examples it engenders RDS that blocks all rational thinking and hurts feelings.
If I go over to the apple forum and suggest similar things it will not be rejected or seem out of place and sound weird.
You are seeing an actual Live Feed of how Biab has actually been held back in the past in real-time.
It's old guard loyalty at its best, with others too afraid to speak up as they might be cancelled.
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mrgeeze,
"I feel it should die a graceful death"
I disagree about the "death" part.
Not sure if you are familiar with small software called Chord Pulse. Last major update was many years ago, with only small maintenance fixes every couple of years. Developer clearly mentioned that there will not be significant further development (perhaps that will change). The point I am trying to make, it's solid as a rock and (mainly) bug free. It is still available for purchase and thousands of people enjoy using it for one reason or another. I hope, in the future something like this can be done with BIAB and muscle is put behind the plugin.
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I have ChordPulse and suggested some features for it, but it just works as it should.
The Plugin is up to 6 now and still don't work because of the old ways of working in the Delphi Biab.
I can't see how Biab main app can last into the future 6 months Win 6 months Mac, no one seems to answer this. You can't cling onto something like this as hope for the future, surely.
You should not have to be rendering to wav files to get it into your DAW with real time signatures that don't match Biab fake ones.
If you are using it as a band in a box, where you press a button and you have a backing band and don't get out in the real world you may be happy with it.
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mrgeeze,
"I feel it should die a graceful death"
I disagree about the "death" part.
Not sure if you are familiar with small software called Chord Pulse. Last major update was many years ago, with only small maintenance fixes every couple of years. Developer clearly mentioned that there will not be significant further development (perhaps that will change). The point I am trying to make, it's solid as a rock and (mainly) bug free. It is still available for purchase and thousands of people enjoy using it for one reason or another. I hope, in the future something like this can be done with BIAB and muscle is put behind the plugin. Rusty, Fair enough. Perhaps Not necessary to kill it. Put it out to pasture rather than take it to the slaughterhouse. Plenty of good products out there aging gracefully with no updates for years. So perhaps A reasonable effort toward a last stable release may be worth the effort. Perhaps. Spend every other $$ on the plug in. The plug in will, imo make or break the company in the future.
biab2024(Mac) Latest Build
Mac OS Sequoia 15.0.1
Apple M2 pro 32GB Ram
Logic Pro 11
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Personally I'd settle for a bit of AI in biab in future versions, I think the PG developers will move biab on at their own speed, regardless of how many so called white papers are written, or how much is written about it here.
If its makes users happy though to keep talking about it, even though for the greater part, its simply "armchair" or wasted talk, I suppose that is ok too.
Last edited by musiclover; 06/03/24 08:17 AM.
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The Plugin is up to 6 now and still don't work ... Hate to cherry pick a comment, and I only allow myself one or two really dark negative postings here in the forum a month, but I could not pass this one up. I just have to remind you all that the 6 stands for 6 ficken years of this! So if this is the future of BIAB, count me out.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6
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I'd posted this in personal messages, but maybe I should put it here to show why I now struggle mentally with BIAB... I tried to contribute more than I did, but every time I tried to check an issue was still extant, I just couldn't do it. I struggle to do much work just fighting some of the bugs/quirks/inconsistencies.
I've spent much of today trying again to check if the problem still exists in 2024, but it seems harder than ever to gety to the point where I actually can test it. Import of MusicXML still puts the anacrusis notes at the beginning of the bar, not the end; the delta sign for Major chords is still ignored, it's dropping some first chords in bars and using the second chord instead; it doesn't handle the first and second ending from the MusicXML, if I ask it to not insert extra melody notes, the melody omits most of the second time through (OK, fair enough), if I ask it to insert the new melody notes, I get (I think) both the new melody notes and the section B notes simultaneously; it doesn't handle the D.S. al Coda, nor does it seem to accept a D.C al Coda as a substitute, but that may be my bad. It still doesn't allow the D.S. or D.C. in a single chorus song. All that before I even get to the point where I can tell if changing from multiple choruses to a single chorus still trashes the melody. I spend hours sometimes trying to isolate and accurately report issues and nothing changes I think I can't do this any more.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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