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I was not going to respond anymore to you sir MC. I have to say one thing. For you to see when someone disagrees with you as an attack is really wrong. It is a difference of opinion. to label and berate others for their views is an attack. This is why folks resist you. Not because of your ideas which are innovative and thought provoking. You have the ability to be a very powerful force for future thinking here and elsewhere. I have read many of your post here and over at the Reaper forum You are very talented. You just miss one key point. One that D Cuny tried to help you see. That point is that your plan/idea/concept, call it what you want is just that yours, and not the only path to the future. It is helpful but not the only option.
You are welcome to stay and help or go as you see fit. Every time you don't like what others have to say you threaten to leave. That has been happening now for over 10 years usually you do go for a couple months. the return with a different name. That again is your prerogative. No one here is asking you to go. All we ask it that you offer the rest of us who are also trying in our own way to assist PGM in the future ideas for the BiaB product the same dignity and respect you want from us. We don't label you in public, we don't highjack your threads and change the subject to our agenda, we treat you fairly even if we disagree with one of your views. However, when you start your attacks and labeling, highjacking we point this out and ask you not to, when you then start trying to belittle us about it, we fight back. You take that as an attack. Sir you threw the first punch. We just react. If that is wrong, then at least from me i apologize. I ask one thing, and one thing only! Be respectful to all here, as you want respect back. If that does not make sense to you then i don't know what will. I am done with the conversation.
TSo the rest on this important thread and to PGM i apologize as well i will keep my thought here to the subject at hand.
Last edited by Rob Helms; 06/06/24 10:03 AM.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2024, Realband, Reaper, Harrison Mixbus 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Sir is actually a Madam as far as I know. 
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< What could be improved >
Weaknesses:
Weaknesses 6 and 7 appear to be directly linked regarding subject matter.
I've interpreted Weakness 7 as an example of a solution to Weakness 6 and doesn't stand on its own as an actual program weakness. Further clarification is needed from the authors of the White Paper as to why Weakness 7 is an actual weakness of the program.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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< What could be improved >
Weaknesses
<< 8. New (2024) way of using Bar Settings (Mutes, Back to Normal) for Utility tracks.
Unlike "Legacy" tracks, where you have visuals on a single page which tracks are muted or unmuted, utility track requires clicking on the separate drop down menu and selecting the track in question manually, just to see what was done to it. Many (!)useless clicks.
Expected: Everything visualized and editable on a single page. >>
While this weakness is true for 2024, an improvement of the White Paper would be acknowledgement the BIAB program has for years offered an updated and alternative considered better than the Bar Settings Mute/Back to Normal method.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Weakness 8 can be made better by a simple slide bar to the right of the tracks. the Legacy and Utility tracks all listed in a row that extend down below in a "window" inside the Non Modal window. When you slide the bar down it reveals the lower tracks. This eliminates the drop down click just slide to the track in question and back if needed.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2024, Realband, Reaper, Harrison Mixbus 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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< What did we get wrong >
(See item #15in the BiaB’s Weaknesses section)
Typo error. #15 should be #14
.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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< What can be improved >
< 5. The Needs of the Advanced BiaB User
The needs of the advanced user are numerous. Pro Musicians, songwriters and composers alike demand intuitive interfaces, seamless workflows, high-quality results and of course a bug-free experience. Any software product falling short in these areas risks losing these users, as time is often equivalent to money for them.
The advanced user also requires that complex, compound time signatures be readily and seamlessly available to support their workflow. Some examples are 5/4, 6/8, 7/8, 9/8, and 12/8. These time signatures need to be native i.e. no workarounds needed. >
This point isn't compelling because it's not supported with documented sources and references. It seems more of an opinion by the authors than researched and validated fact. At the least, if outside documentation and sources aren't considered necessary, the authors that are professional musicians, songwriters and composers, should be listed with their credentials.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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WHITE PAPER
8.Realistic Live Tracks: The software excels at creating realistic live tracks (stems) that
follow your chords and are performed by live musicians. This feature, which predates
AI, can save you time and assist in songwriting and practice. It includes RealTracks (RTs), RealDrums (RDs), and Super MIDI tracks (SMT
Should include UserTracks, loops, and more importantly, Artist Performance Files Charlie, this is beyond my "pay grade". Hopefully someone on the team can address this. No response is necessary as the point was simply to list all of the formats that BIAB can accept in the Mixer to create songs with.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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< What can be improved >
< 5. The Needs of the Advanced BiaB User
The needs of the advanced user are numerous. Pro Musicians, songwriters and composers alike demand intuitive interfaces, seamless workflows, high-quality results and of course a bug-free experience. Any software product falling short in these areas risks losing these users, as time is often equivalent to money for them.
The advanced user also requires that complex, compound time signatures be readily and seamlessly available to support their workflow. Some examples are 5/4, 6/8, 7/8, 9/8, and 12/8. These time signatures need to be native i.e. no workarounds needed. >
This point isn't compelling because it's not supported with documented sources and references. It seems more of an opinion by the authors than researched and validated fact. At the least, if outside documentation and sources aren't considered necessary, the authors that are professional musicians, songwriters and composers, should be listed with their credentials. Good point Charlie, I'm not sure if such a paper could be written without some degree of opinion. I'm thinking the disclaimer should have read: Disclaimer: The authors are not, and cannot speak on behalf of PG Music Inc. or any other company in any capacity. We are simply a group of short-time and long-time users of the program offering opinion, observation and analysis.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Suggested improvement:
Disclaimer: The authors are not speaking on behalf of PG Music. We are just PG Music customers offering opinion, observation and analysis.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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My posts aren't intended to put any author or the White Paper itself on the defensive. My understanding is the white Paper's intended audience is the staff, developers and coders of PG Music. I understand the White Paper is from a group of customers offering opinion, observation, and analysis.
I believe the purpose of the authors posting the White Paper in this forum is to illicit opinion, observation, and analysis from other forum members.
My suggestions for improvements, corrections and analysis are from my reading and understanding of the White Paper in its existing present form. It appears from the initial post in this forum, the White Paper is expected to be further edited and improved based on general forum members input and suggestions.
I have no issue with the authors editing the disclaimer if they feel it necessary and that would be in agreement with my suggestions that some points in the White Paper need minor editing to clearly separate what's opinion and what's analysis.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Charlie, you completly get it and thanks for your thoughtful feedback, keep it coming You are very well spoken, by chance are you coming from a career in academia or perhaps a background in technical writing?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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No. I didn't have a career in academia or technical writing. I was primarily a large loss claims specialist for many decades and also a state constable for three years and Volunteer fireman and chief of the Rescue squad for nineteen years.
In all three endeavors, I learned to think that everything I write and everything others wrote that I was involved with - to assume one day it would be read out loud to 12 people in a jury, only to then be interpreted with opposing points of view by attorneys.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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No. I didn't have a career in academia or technical writing. I was primarily a large loss claims specialist for many decades and also a state constable for three years and Volunteer fireman and chief of the Rescue squad for nineteen years. A State Constable?? Yikes, I better be careful what I say or I'll be in handcuffs and hauled off in a paddywagon Kidding aside, maybe we should have had you on our white paper team. I think you would have had something valuable to contribute. I have found in any organization, be it religious, recreational, academic, civic, government, commercial or volunteer; 5% of the people produce 95% of the work. Most are happy to sit, watch, spectate or bystand.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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(Dec 2024) Now I had a long rest from PG after my last post in this thread and have only just come back now as the things I stated were too far ahead to be understood. Now, have all the things mentioned here in this white paper now been implemented in the 2025 version ? The only thing that brought me back here to PG was the Plugin/Plugin Standalone now having direct playback from disk and instant generation along with small Audiophile drive with FLAC. These things will now allow the Plugin/Plugin Standalone to become the future, being crossplatform without 6 month Win, 6 months Mac development phase. Now as the generate code is moved into the Plugin it will truly become crossplatform when implemented, released at the same time for Win & Mac users only needing to purchase one product that can be installed on both Win & or Mac. The Win users have the 2025 version now, but how about the Mac users, what are they doing for the next 6 months ? Users should focus on both Biab and Plugin and not just one, I have come up with so many things that have been implemented in Biab and still do, BUT also come up with ideas to make the Plugin better. I have been at this for so long and can't be expected to limit my understanding to the first few years I had in 2009 to fit in best with other's understanding so as not not rock the boat and come back into the past. It's like the Midi Chord Track I posted info years and years ago with demos for Ni, Toontrack, Ample, Musiclabs, VirtualGuitarist etc on how to use this but it's only just recently now being used. I even showed a video with RC years n years ago Watch Video
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The Win users have the 2025 version now, but how about the Mac users, what are they doing for the next 6 months ? It's always been that way I believe. Win users get a new version every 12 months. Mac users get a new version every 12 months. (And Mac users get less bugs, because Win users have already ironed many of those out. ) Overall, it's a fairly level playing field.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows® Today!
If you’ve already purchased Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®, great news—a new update is now available! This update introduces a handy new feature: a vertical cursor in the Tracks window that shows the current location across all tracks, and more.
Discover everything included in this free update and download it now at https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1124
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator
With Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®, we've introduced an exciting new feature: the AI Lyrics Generator! In this video, Tobin guides you step-by-step on how to make the most of this new tool.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator video.
Check out the forum post for more information.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows® now includes support for VST3 plugins, bringing even more creative possibilities to your music production. Join Simon as he guides you through the process in this easy-to-follow demonstration!
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Join the conversation on our forum.
Video: Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows: Using The BB Stem Splitter!
In this video, Tobin provides a crash course on using the new BB Stem Splitter feature included in Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®. During this process he also uses the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW) and the new Equalize Tempo feature.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using the BB Stem Splitter
Check out the forum post for some optional Tips & Tricks!
Congrats to Misha (Rustyspoon)…downloaded/installed a full Audiophile 2025!
Breaking News!
We’re thrilled to announce that Rustyspoon has made PG history as the very first person to successfully complete the download and install of the full Band-in-a-Box 2025 Windows Audiophile Edition (with FLAC files)—a whopping 610GB of data!
A big shoutout to Rustyspoon for stepping up to be our test "elf!"
Thank you for your support, Rustyspoon!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows Videos
With the launch of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows, we're adding new videos to our YouTube channel. We'll also share them here once they are published so you can easily find all the Band-in-a-Box® 2025 and new Add-on videos in one place!
Whether it's a summary of the new features, demonstrations of the 202 new RealTracks, new XPro Styles PAK 8, or Xtra Styles PAKs 18, information on the 2025 49-PAK, or detailed tutorials for other Band-in-a-Box® 2025 features, we have you covered!
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Videos - we will be updating this post as more videos are added!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until December 31, 2024! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
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