When BIAB compiles a Real Track, I noticed some chord transitions are not seamless. How do you deal with these?
Can you give any examples?
The most common way is to report this to PG Music Support, as they have created the RealTracks, and sometimes can offer a fix if they become aware of any issues.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
When BIAB compiles a Real Track, I noticed some chord transitions are not seamless. How do you deal with these?
Can you give any examples?
The most common way is to report this to PG Music Support, as they have created the RealTracks, and sometimes can offer a fix if they become aware of any issues.
I double-checked and I guess it happens when BIAB is playing. When it is rendered to a WAV file, it is OK.
Writer. Author. Music Producer. Technologist. Former contributor to Mix, Electronic Musician, Recording, Cleveland SCENE. www.tonythomas.net
When BIAB compiles a Real Track, I noticed some chord transitions are not seamless. How do you deal with these?
Tony, what soundcard and driver are you using?
Those glitches you hear in playback but not in the exported file are often a result of using factory sound and default drivers. They're really not designed to handle the multiple files we run in sync with synths. They can't handle the massive load so to reasonably keep up, they drop data which we hear as pops, drops, stutters and more. However, during the export it has sufficient time to render it properly.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
This could be any of several things, some of which have been identified. Rendering to a WAVE file is done at the speed it can do that, and it would not have the audio glitches that real-time processing has. Some possibilities:
Audio card driver up to date. Windows up to date. Windows update just reactivated a device you don't want, such as the HD speaker in a monitor screen. Yes, Windows updates do that. Try the WAS driver in Preferences, Audio. If you are using the WAS driver, try the ASIO driver. In ASIO, get into the ASIO control panel and experiment with the buffer settings. Raise them to start. The setting AudioTrack showed above: this song has playback problems. Something running in the background; try rebooting and running only BIAB Reduce programs that start automatically on bootup. If you need help how to fix that, let us know. Is it one RealTrack only? Does it happen if you run many RealTracks in the same song? I could go on ...
As Herb said, tell us about your soundcard. Also about your processor type and speed and cores.
Are you anywhere near Rocky River?
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
When BIAB compiles a Real Track, I noticed some chord transitions are not seamless. How do you deal with these?
Tony, what soundcard and driver are you using?
Those glitches you hear in playback but not in the exported file are often a result of using factory sound and default drivers. They're really not designed to handle the multiple files we run in sync with synths. They can't handle the massive load so to reasonably keep up, they drop data which we hear as pops, drops, stutters and more. However, during the export it has sufficient time to render it properly.
I am using a Behringer UMC204HD interface and the default Windows drivers. It shows 30ms latency. The "seams" do not show up often, but when they do, they are noticeable and I have a sensitive ear.
Writer. Author. Music Producer. Technologist. Former contributor to Mix, Electronic Musician, Recording, Cleveland SCENE. www.tonythomas.net
This could be any of several things, some of which have been identified. Rendering to a WAVE file is done at the speed it can do that, and it would not have the audio glitches that real-time processing has. Some possibilities:
Audio card driver up to date. Windows up to date. Windows update just reactivated a device you don't want, such as the HD speaker in a monitor screen. Yes, Windows updates do that. Try the WAS driver in Preferences, Audio. If you are using the WAS driver, try the ASIO driver. In ASIO, get into the ASIO control panel and experiment with the buffer settings. Raise them to start. The setting AudioTrack showed above: this song has playback problems. Something running in the background; try rebooting and running only BIAB Reduce programs that start automatically on bootup. If you need help how to fix that, let us know. Is it one RealTrack only? Does it happen if you run many RealTracks in the same song? I could go on ...
As Herb said, tell us about your soundcard. Also about your processor type and speed and cores.
Are you anywhere near Rocky River?
Processor is a Ryzen 5700G. 8 cores. 16 threads. 3.8 GHz base clock.
Rocky River is probably 13-15 miles away.
Writer. Author. Music Producer. Technologist. Former contributor to Mix, Electronic Musician, Recording, Cleveland SCENE. www.tonythomas.net
Stutter means something different to me. I remember when BIAB stuttered because of overloaded processing, often based on other programs running and not the fault of BIAB, but that stuttering caused the beat to falter. I'm not hearing that here. The time seems rock solid. The little hits are likely a quick bounce or double bounce of the sticks on a tom. It adds realism and nuance.
Unless you are hearing something else I'm not, this track sounds fine to me.
What do others think?
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
You mentioned previously that "Drums struggle at bars 9-10"
I've listened multiple times. I couldn't hear anything that sounded incorrect at all, and especially anything I would call a struggle, or a stutter, or an odd timing beat. I really just heard how I would expect a real drum kit to be played and how it should sound. There are some lead in phrases at bars 3, at 7 (on the floor tom) and again at 9, but I am sure that these were a deliberate part of the performance.
Last edited by AudioTrack; 06/26/2410:18 PM.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
When BIAB compiles a Real Track, I noticed some chord transitions are not seamless. How do you deal with these?
Tony, what soundcard and driver are you using?
Those glitches you hear in playback but not in the exported file are often a result of using factory sound and default drivers. They're really not designed to handle the multiple files we run in sync with synths. They can't handle the massive load so to reasonably keep up, they drop data which we hear as pops, drops, stutters and more. However, during the export it has sufficient time to render it properly.
I am using a Behringer UMC204HD interface and the default Windows drivers. It shows 30ms latency. The "seams" do not show up often, but when they do, they are noticeable and I have a sensitive ear.
Reading down the posts, it looks like you switched to ASIO. I looked at the specs and it seemed like it uses a proprietary driver, but if it runs with ASIO, that is the driver you really do want to use, certainly not the windows default driver.
I use 44.1k sample rate and 24 bit depth. Nothing is really gained by going to a higher setting unless you are writing for film/TV which want 48k/24.
30ms is not a good latency rate. That is definitely noticeable and if you're trying to play/record in sync, that's nearly impossible. You ideally want to be well under 10ms and preferably below 5ms for the best results.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
When BIAB compiles a Real Track, I noticed some chord transitions are not seamless. How do you deal with these?
Tony, what soundcard and driver are you using?
Those glitches you hear in playback but not in the exported file are often a result of using factory sound and default drivers. They're really not designed to handle the multiple files we run in sync with synths. They can't handle the massive load so to reasonably keep up, they drop data which we hear as pops, drops, stutters and more. However, during the export it has sufficient time to render it properly.
I am using a Behringer UMC204HD interface and the default Windows drivers. It shows 30ms latency. The "seams" do not show up often, but when they do, they are noticeable and I have a sensitive ear.
Reading down the posts, it looks like you switched to ASIO. I looked at the specs and it seemed like it uses a proprietary driver, but if it runs with ASIO, that is the driver you really do want to use, certainly not the windows default driver.
I use 44.1k sample rate and 24 bit depth. Nothing is really gained by going to a higher setting unless you are writing for film/TV which want 48k/24.
30ms is not a good latency rate. That is definitely noticeable and if you're trying to play/record in sync, that's nearly impossible. You ideally want to be well under 10ms and preferably below 5ms for the best results.
The UMC204HD has a proprietary UMC driver. Works fine with the 6 DAWs I use. I set latency at 512 most of the time with 13-23ms of latency. I am comfortable with that.
Writer. Author. Music Producer. Technologist. Former contributor to Mix, Electronic Musician, Recording, Cleveland SCENE. www.tonythomas.net
Adding to Matt's comments if my DAW stutters or has other problems increasing my audio interface's buffers always solves the problem.
I am at 512 and that is what I use most of the time. I use 6 DAWs and it works fine with all of them.
it does seem like this is a logical conclusion: my computer is fine in my other programs so it should be fine for BIAB. I used to think that, too, but I changed my mind this year. No other audio program is crunching the processor in real time like BIAB, with the possible exception of a DAW that is running lots of plugins each doing real-time processing like look-ahead limiters etc.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
It is keeping track of a large database of audio and inserting pieces and pitch converting in real-time. It would probably benefit from larger buffers, not smaller ones.
The seams are more noticeable if you solo the tracks.
When you render them to audio, I think it is inserting fades in the audio tracks at the transitions, and that smooths things out. I just have to get used to it.
Writer. Author. Music Producer. Technologist. Former contributor to Mix, Electronic Musician, Recording, Cleveland SCENE. www.tonythomas.net
It would probably benefit from larger buffers, not smaller ones.
Possibly, but larger buffers take more time to fill. Try it both ways and you might be surprised. ...
Originally Posted by tony10000
When you render them to audio, I think it is inserting fades in the audio tracks at the transitions, and that smooths things out. I just have to get used to it.
Now that's an interesting speculation. I don't think we know anything about that. You might be right. I tend to think that BIAB can process at whatever pace it wants to produce the high quality rendering, because you aren't listening at the same time. The 'smoothing' is just a guess.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
I'm pretty sure they are crosssfades going on. Prevents a digital clip if the two waveforms don't align perfectly. I am also pretty sure I saw that confirmed by staff somewhere here.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Crossfades will eliminate clicks but can’t do much for register jumping.
Bob, so I understand this, are you suggesting you think that the rendered song could sound better than if you recorded the playback in real time? That would be news to me.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
I'm pretty sure they are crosssfades going on. Prevents a digital clip if the two waveforms don't align perfectly. I am also pretty sure I saw that confirmed by staff somewhere here.
This is correct. There's also been a big jump in the number of RealTracks BIAB can read from. Prior to the introduction of the Utility Tracks, the RealTrack Medley Maker provided a sub-mix to read and program an additional 10 RealTracks per Legacy Mixer Channel. It was confirmed by PG staff that a total of 70 instruments could be configured in a variety of ways to play either simultaneously or consecutively.
The BIAB Mixer can read, select and generate 70 RealTracks creating a 70 instrument mix including cross-fades, specific audio selected for intro's, outro's, fade-in's and fade-out's. Since the introduction of the 16 Utility Tracks, all 24 tracks now have the RealTrack Medley Maker feature and one can see from the attached screenshots of the RealTrack Medley Maker - the feature includes the main instrument and 10 additional slots for a total of 11 RealTracks per Mixer Channel. This feature shows it should be possible to read, select, generate a song with 264 instrument in a single render.
Because it's digital, there's no audio degradation like there would be with analog bouncing and mixes. The RealTrack Medley Maker feature is also available in the Standalone Plug-in located in the RealTracks Picker. I agree with Matt the newer versions of BIAB likely put a greater strain on PC resources than older versions.
Crossfades will eliminate clicks but can’t do much for register jumping.
Bob, so I understand this, are you suggesting you think that the rendered song could sound better than if you recorded the playback in real time? That would be news to me.
I have no idea what you asked there, and no idea how you got that from my post. Simplified explanation - I meant when two chunks of wav, clip one & clip two, are butted together end to end, the odds of where the line on the waveform ends on clip1 lining up with the start of clip2 are slim. The result would often be an audible click or noticeable change. So they cross fade, one fades out, one fades in real fast. There's more to it than that, but the concept.
Nothing to do with recording real time or whatever you asked.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
It would probably benefit from larger buffers, not smaller ones.
Possibly, but larger buffers take more time to fill. Try it both ways and you might be surprised. ...
Originally Posted by tony10000
When you render them to audio, I think it is inserting fades in the audio tracks at the transitions, and that smooths things out. I just have to get used to it.
Now that's an interesting speculation. I don't think we know anything about that. You might be right. I tend to think that BIAB can process at whatever pace it wants to produce the high quality rendering, because you aren't listening at the same time. The 'smoothing' is just a guess.
Tony10000 is correct regarding transitions and the same for Rharv in recalling the subject being discussed by PG Staff. This concept was explained and confirmed by Andrew and demonstrated by Pipeline (Currently Musocity) years ago. I was able to locate a post regarding transitions using RT1152:Silence that quotes Andrew's remarks on the subject he had made sometime prior to the referenced post.
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