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C-G#m ? #815802 07/01/24 05:52 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,068 S swingbabymix OP Veteran
OP swingbabymix Veteran S Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,068	This is a song in E major. Notice how 6b in the red circle sounds. I never understood. Why would a 6b suddenly appear The first time I saw C-G#m (6b-3m) How does the connection work? 00:49 WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO

Re: C-G#m ? swingbabymix #815806 07/01/24 06:52 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 19,117 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 19,117 Australia	In E major, the 6th note of the scale is C#. This means that chord 6 is C# major. If you want to play an ordinary C major chord in that key, you need to play the major chord on the flattened 6th note of the scale (i.e. C and not C#). It's equivalent to trying to reference an Ab major chord in the key of C major. MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2024 audios on Soundcloud

Re: C-G#m ? swingbabymix #815807 07/01/24 07:02 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,999 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,999 Melbourne, Australia	Firstly, a beautiful song. The key is in E Major. The 6th note of E major is therefore C#, yes? The composer wants to play a C natural chord instead, so the sixth note has to be flattened to become C. The chord structure simply shows that the 6th (normally C#) is flattened to become C. The 6th(C#) is flattened(C). Pretty straightforward, yes? Can you follow? Do you understand the Major diatonic scales (five whole steps and two half steps, arranged in a strictly defined way)? If not, this would be very helpful for you to study. BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: C-G#m ? AudioTrack #815808 07/01/24 07:05 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,999 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,999 Melbourne, Australia	Update, thanks Noel, I was also trying to find a way to explain this in the meantime. I'm not sure if I complicated this. But SBM will hopefully take something valuable from both of our replies. BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: C-G#m ? AudioTrack #815813 07/01/24 07:45 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,068 S swingbabymix OP Veteran
OP swingbabymix Veteran S Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,068	Originally Posted by AudioTrack Update, thanks Noel, I was also trying to find a way to explain this in the meantime. I'm not sure if I complicated this. But SBM will hopefully take something valuable from both of our replies. Yes. I understand that C is a 6b in E major What I don't understand is why you can access a 6b here, and 6b can also connect to 3m Let's say it in C major. exactly F-G-Em-Am-Dm-G-C Ab-Em-Am-Dm-G-C I don't understand why this Ab can be put here. WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO

Re: C-G#m ? swingbabymix #815816 07/01/24 08:22 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 21,532 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 21,532 Hamlin NY	C chord = C-E-G G#m chord = G#-B-D# Notes C to B = 1/2 step Notes G to G# = 1/2 step Notes E to D# = 1/2 step 1/2 step chord transitions are very common. For instance in blues if one wants to go to a 9th chord, for example an E9, many times one will quickly move from F9 to E9. Understand? Last edited by MarioD; 07/01/24 08:23 AM. Inflation is so bad that CEOs are now playing miniature golf! 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: C-G#m ? swingbabymix #815822 07/01/24 08:53 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,999 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,999 Melbourne, Australia	Quote Let's say it in C major. exactly F-G-Em-Am-Dm-G-C Ab-Em-Am-Dm-G-C I don't understand why this Ab can be put here. Actually, I don't understand a single thing mentioned above. Sorry. Are you suggesting that a song in C Major is totally restricted to the use of only certain other chords? It could not include an Ab chord? Surely not? Why would that be? Could a song in C Major include a C minor chord? Would that be prohibited? If so, why? Could a song in C Major use an Ab chord? Would that be prohibited? If so, why? I'm not sure, but maybe you still believe there are chord-based rules based on a key signature that cannot ever be overwritten. As I mentioned before, go and look at some of Burt Bacharch's compositions. Although, sorry, I recall you mentioned previously that you didn't have time to study music theory. I studied Australian Conservatorium of Music and London College of Music to know this. But if you're too busy to learn any theory at all, well good luck. You'll be able to work it out eventually BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: C-G#m ? MarioD #815887 07/01/24 09:52 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,068 S swingbabymix OP Veteran
OP swingbabymix Veteran S Joined: Sep 2021 Posts: 2,068	Originally Posted by MarioD Understand? Thanks for your reply. So why is there a 6b (C) I see a lot of songs in the first verse, and if it's F-G-... So the second paragraph also starts with an F-G But this example song is 6b(C) Since it's a new beginning, we can start with 6b, right? WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO

Re: C-G#m ? swingbabymix #815888 07/01/24 10:23 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 19,117 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 19,117 Australia	Mostly people talk about the flattened VI chord as being borrowed from the parallel minor. Consider the two scales below. In both scales, the tonal centre is "E". Moreover, chords progressions based on the notes of each scale can harmonically gravitate to this tonal centre of E. In the natural minor scale, notes III, VI and VII are a semitone flatter than notes III, VI and VII when compared to the major scale. Chords built on notes III, VI or VII (whichever scale is used) can still be used as part of the harmonic progression that resolves to the tonal centre "E". It is for this reason, that most theorists talk about chords based on the flattened III, flattened VI and flattened VII are being chords borrowed from the parallel minor. As I see it, the C - G#m progressions is a VI - III progression (that is, the diatonic chord built on note VI going to the diatonic chord built on note III). Provided there are no clashes with melodic notes, the progression most likely works whether the VI chord is from the major key (C#m) or the minor key (C). The VI chord from the minor scale, though, would have more sonic 'colour' associated with it. MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2024 audios on Soundcloud

Re: C-G#m ? swingbabymix #815925 07/02/24 06:21 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 21,532 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 21,532 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted by swingbabymix Originally Posted by MarioD Understand? Thanks for your reply. So why is there a 6b (C) I see a lot of songs in the first verse, and if it's F-G-... So the second paragraph also starts with an F-G But this example song is 6b(C) Since it's a new beginning, we can start with 6b, right? The only real answer is because that is what the composer wanted. That is true of all music. Noel gives a good music theory answer. But one must remember that music theory has rules and said rules are there to be broken. There are thousands of chord progressions out there. Some follow music theory to a tee (for example the circle of 5ths) while others do not. Basically any chord can come after any chord but to understand why it works does take some theory. Inflation is so bad that CEOs are now playing miniature golf! 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: C-G#m ? MarioD #815969 07/02/24 12:34 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,058 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott Veteran
Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,058 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted by MarioD But one must remember that music theory has rules and said rules are there to be broken. It isn't mandatory, of course. There was a little bit of one of Rick Beato's "what makes this song great?" series about Seal's "A kiss from a Rose", where he telephones Seal and asks him about a particular, unusual, chord progression. I loved Seal's answer: "Nobody had told me I couldn't do that". Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: C-G#m ? MarioD #816035 07/03/24 05:40 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,183 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,183 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Originally Posted by MarioD <...snip...> The only real answer is because that is what the composer wanted. <...> Great answer. It is important to know music theory, but it's also sometimes an advantage to 'break the rules'. I believe this is the difference between current AI and human composers. How does it sound when I do this? If we didn't do that, we would be stuck with JS Bach harmonies. Why would you play a minor third or flatted fifth in a major 12 bar blues progression? Because it makes the proper amount of tension that can be relieved. After all, tension and relief is the source of some of the greatest human pleasures. You are hungry — tension. You sit down and enjoy a great meal — relief. You climb to the top of Mt. Everest — tension. You get to the top — relief. Even the act of procreation involves building tensions until the climax, which is the release. So a great piece of music should provide tension and release. This can be done many ways, dissonance is one of them. Insights and incites by Notes ♫ Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: C-G#m ? Gordon Scott #816038 07/03/24 06:36 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,999 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 18,999 Melbourne, Australia	Quote I loved Seal's answer: "Nobody had told me I couldn't do that". Yes, this, exactly. BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: C-G#m ? swingbabymix #816043 07/03/24 07:08 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,179 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,179 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Musicians come in all forms. Creativity comes in all forms. I recall a story (I have no way of knowing if it's true but I believe it could be) that the wonderful guitarist/bassist/vocalist Jon Lucien was invited to Berklee and discovered there was an entire class devoted to how his songs are constructed. He was flabbergasted. His lecture essentially was, I have no idea how I'm doing that or what it is; it just sounded good. While it's wonderful to know music theory, I also recognize there is room for those who do not. Besides, those folks hire me to write the sheet music that they can copyright BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors

Re: C-G#m ? Matt Finley #816058 07/03/24 09:52 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 496 Lowell, MA Funkifized Journeyman
Funkifized Journeyman Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 496 Lowell, MA	There is room for those who do not, but there is also a lot of trial and error for those who refuse to learn. Often tunes are written that don't make a ton of sense harmonically, and the arrangement hides the problems. I've heard enough versions of "Dock Of The Bay" in which Otis wrote the tune on a guitar tuned to a chord, therefore all major chords. Cover bands get the changes wrong because they think that there are relative minor chords in there. There are not. "Chain Of Fools" comes to mind, too. Major, not minor. The magic in Aretha's version is that something sounds different than all the cover band versions, because they think it's in minor. The other side of this is Al Green's tunes, which are clearly music theory uninformed, and the arrangement hides the weird harmonic issues. If the cover bands did what are actually the changes in Al's version of the tune, they would sound weird. Band-in-a-Box® for Windows Version 2024 (1111) 64 bit application RealBand 2024 (1) Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Intel Core i7 4800MQ @ 2.70GHz Haswell 22nm Technology 16.0GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 798MHz (11-11-11-28)

Re: C-G#m ? swingbabymix #816102 07/04/24 05:45 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,183 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,183 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	There are folks who know music theory and IMO are lousy musicians. There are some who don't know theory but are great musicians. And there are great musicians who also know music theory. These are the folks that can write symphonies. Being a musician and a writer is not one thing, but a collection of different skills plus your inborn talent (or capability). I think that the more of these skills that you can learn and hone will make you a better musician, up to the limitation of your inborn capability. I also think when it comes to songwriting, what humans have that AI doesn't have (yet) is when breaking the rules and listening to what occurred, the human can decided whether it sounds good or terrible. Insights and incites by Notes ♫ Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: C-G#m ? Notes Norton #816111 07/04/24 07:08 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,319 United States Bass Thumper Veteran
Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,319 United States	Originally Posted by Notes Norton I also think when it comes to songwriting, what humans have that AI doesn't have (yet) is when breaking the rules and listening to what occurred, the human can decided whether it sounds good or terrible. Interesting comment. For my own education can you give an example of this involving a successful popular song and include the rule(s) that was/were broken? https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: C-G#m ? Notes Norton #816127 07/04/24 09:54 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,179 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,179 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Originally Posted by Notes Norton .I also think when it comes to songwriting, what humans have that AI doesn't have (yet) is when breaking the rules and listening to what occurred, the human can decide whether it sounds good or terrible. I can get behind that definition. Duke Ellington would have liked it as well. BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors

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