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In Need of Production Help [Resolved] #818169 07/29/24 07:42 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	I would greatly appreciate suggestions / advise regarding how to optimize this project. The audio is a first cut in production. I am questioning the "arrangement" of the tracks. Does it need more/less to make it tell the story? I am also questioning the "originality" of the song. The chords are a generic minor progession, but does the melody sound too familar (do you recognize the inspiration)?? Good (free ) production direction at this stage in the project would be a great help to me. Thanks https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eWBuaNTbkDI1BFWp4OkYL-mUDpiRj8aJ/view?usp=sharing BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818182 07/29/24 01:35 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,068 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,068 Mi., USA	I may help if users know what the download contains ... I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: In Need of Production Help rharv #818183 07/29/24 01:59 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	Originally Posted by rharv I may help if users know what the download contains ... .. the current version of my project song "No Tears to Cry". It is a .flac file uploaded to Google drive. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818185 07/29/24 02:08 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	Maybe I need to be more specific with a couple of production points to get the cretique going: 1) Does this song sound to much like its inspiration, then I need to go back to the drawing board? 2 The vocals are sparse - I left a lot of room for the instruments. But, does that work? Or do I need more to tell the story? 3) I have both violin and piano playing solo melody at the same time (panned L and R). Does that work or is it messy? PM me if that works better for you... Tell me what you think. I have time to work more on this if needed. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818192 07/29/24 03:27 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,068 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,068 Mi., USA	FWIW, it is always downloaded to the users computer (often in a Temp folder) but DL'd nonetheless My personal thoughts, and this just me, so not meant as any professional guidance (and hope it's OK I'll be direct, hopefully being helpful, again please take no offense it is just my thoughts) For this type of song, the vocals need to be tuned closer The synth 'ooo' sound is too intrusive in some parts Yes, the piano and string solo fight with each other in my opinion, try changing or removing one (for this type song I'd leave the strings) /haven't done this in a while & hopefully this sparks other opinions, because my above opinion is only what I hear in this particular environment .. Last edited by rharv; 07/29/24 03:31 PM. Reason: spelling/clarity .. as always I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818193 07/29/24 03:47 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	great start, much appreciated rharv BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818257 07/30/24 09:20 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 10,665 Kernersville, NC USA Jim Fogle Veteran
Jim Fogle Veteran Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 10,665 Kernersville, NC USA	Dan, Google Drive has a file download option. I've highlighted it in red on a copy of your screen shot. I've downloaded the demo. It's my first encounter with a FLAC audio file. First impressions: 5:55 is a long time for a song.I would shoot for 3:00 maximum. The intro piano doesn't connect with the rest of the intro. You could drop it and listeners would never realize it is missing. Too much echo on your vocal. It gives me the feeling you don't like your voice. But I do, I think it has an honest quality to it sort of like John Prine. Maybe listen to a John Prine or Bob Dylan recording to get an idea how professional engineers and mixers treat their vocals in a mix. You normally want the vocal to be a clear as possible, especially on a song this emotional. The first verse is your pledge. I think you should try to be more forceful in your singing in the second part of the verse. Let the listener know you mean what you say. Although the words are a repeat of the first verse, the second round is saying goodbye. Now is the time to let the emotion into your vocal. Sing it soft, like a lullaby. The piano is too far left and the violin too far right. You want some bleed through to the opposite channel. Look at how BiaB styles space two rhythm tracks (like guitars) mid left and mid right. Make the instrumental fade-out faster. From an emotional standpoint, that's got to be a tough song to work on. I admire the song and your desire to get it right. Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) Clipboard01.jpg (11.22 KB, 149 downloads) Dan's Google Drive screen shot with download option highlighted in red. Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1125e) RB (Build 4) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818258 07/30/24 09:32 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	I have no objection to anyone downloading it. I have no interest in copywritting anything I compose. If fact, in the case of this song, my first concern was that it sounds too much like a very popular copywritted tune (which was the inspiration). But as I read up on copywrite law, my AI lawyer has told me there is no problem here. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818286 07/30/24 02:39 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 7,313 Sacramento, California dcuny Veteran
dcuny Veteran Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 7,313 Sacramento, California	Hi, Dan. My notes look la lot like Jim's: I like the intro - it hints at a jazzy song. But it ends up not going there, so it seems out of place There is too much slapback on the vocal. The "oohs" fight against the vocals, but sounds fine when there's no vocal. When the violin comes in, it starts feeling awfully close to another song. At 1:59, things click for me, and... yes, it sounds too close to the inspiration The piano parts feel disconnected from the feel of song. I don't think it's copyright infringing, but I find it distracting whenever I'm listening to a song and it reminds me of another song. On that basis, I'd try to remove the similarity. -- David Cuny My virtual singer development blog Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

Re: In Need of Production Help dcuny #818293 07/30/24 03:46 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	Originally Posted by dcuny I like the intro - it hints at a jazzy song. But it ends up not going there, so it seems out of place Ya, I like the jazzy intro also. And I agree with you but...This brings in my specific taste so I do want to keep it. Originally Posted by dcuny []There is too much slapback on the vocal. Vocal processing is a work in process and is tuning mentioned by rharv. I will fix this. Originally Posted by dcuny The "oohs" fight against the vocals, but sounds fine when there's no vocal. I agree I will bring this in and out. Originally Posted by dcuny When the violin comes in, it starts feeling awfully close to another song. At 1:59, things click for me, and... yes, it sounds too close to the inspiration So my vocal brings out the original melody? One reason I have kept the vocals sparse. I can tell you the violin is playing the "original inspiration" midi. While the piano is me noddling on the keys. I will start by eliminating the violin midi and see where that takes me. Originally Posted by dcuny []The piano parts feel disconnected from the feel of song. In fact first piano is the left hand only of the original inspiration. So it covers all the chords rhythm nicely and holds down the bass but does not expose the melody. Then there in also my piano playing what I am trying to play to redirect the melody. I will work more on this. Originally Posted by dcuny I don't think it's copyright infringing, but I find it distracting whenever I'm listening to a song and it reminds me of another song. On that basis, I'd try to remove the similarity. Removing the Violin part will help with this. Thank you so much. This input early in the process is extremely helpful. Dan BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818319 07/31/24 02:50 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,382 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott Veteran
Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,382 Hampshire, UK	I also felt there was a disconnect at the end of the piano intro and the start of the song proper, but I too love the piano intro. If it were me, I'd probably keep the piano going after the intro, perhaps quietly playing only chords, and bring in the guitar over the last few intro notes. Personally(YMMV) I'm not keen on the "oohs". Would a cello or viola work? If it would, a long bowed low note under that final piano could be nice. The sound cuts off too sharply at present, of course. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: In Need of Production Help Gordon Scott #818332 07/31/24 05:32 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	Originally Posted by Gordon Scott I also felt there was a disconnect at the end of the piano intro and the start of the song proper, but I too love the piano intro. If it were me, I'd probably keep the piano going after the intro, perhaps quietly playing only chords, and bring in the guitar over the last few intro notes. I do kinda like the abrupt brake, but I also like your suggestion and will give it a try. Originally Posted by Gordon Scott Personally(YMMV) I'm not keen on the "oohs". I agree, fact is I started with the BIAB track, liked it at first and then just forgot about it. Originally Posted by Gordon Scott Would a cello or viola work? If it would, a long bowed low note under that final piano could be nice. I like that idea, I did try Tina Guo Cello - I will revist this. thanks much - kinda fun being a producer isn't it? And certainly nice to have a producer's input. Dan BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818384 07/31/24 12:53 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	Opps – sorry, I missed Jim's input for some reason. Originally Posted by Jim Fogle First impressions: 5:55 is a long time for a song.I would shoot for 3:00 maximum. This version is 5:15 (which I agree is still long). However, the song when render extended 40 secs of silence at the end. That will be fixed and I will look to reduce the instrumental part to further shorten. Originally Posted by Jim Fogle The intro piano doesn't connect with the rest of the intro. You could drop it and listeners would never realize it is missing. I kind of like that style of song writing. A short jazz flourish followed by stop time for the song pickup. I do this a lot. But I am not married to it so it may go. Originally Posted by Jim Fogle Too much echo on your vocal. It gives me the feeling you don't like your voice. But I do, I think it has an honest quality to it sort of like John Prine. Maybe listen to a John Prine or Bob Dylan recording to get an idea how professional engineers and mixers treat their vocals in a mix. You normally want the vocal to be a clear as possible, especially on a song this emotional. The first verse is your pledge. I think you should try to be more forceful in your singing in the second part of the verse. Let the listener know you mean what you say. Although the words are a repeat of the first verse, the second round is saying goodbye. Now is the time to let the emotion into your vocal. Sing it soft, like a lullaby. Here is the good news. These vocals were a “quick and dirty take” sitting at my desktop with a Shure SM57. At which time I actually did like the sound of my voice. But instead of moving to the vocal booth for the Rode condenser mic, in the interest of time I just slapped on a preset from Isotope Nectar. The preset was literally “everything but the kitchen sink”. So yes I will fix the echo and effects and consider all your wonderful guidance when I sing the next version Originally Posted by Jim Fogle The piano is too far left and the violin too far right. You want some bleed through to the opposite channel. Look at how BiaB styles space two rhythm tracks (like guitars) mid left and mid right. Make the instrumental fade-out faster. . Will do! Originally Posted by Jim Fogle From an emotional standpoint, that's got to be a tough song to work on. I admire the song and your desire to get it right. I am sure you are aware my wife is dying in my home as I write and perform this song. So I truly appreciate the producer help with this project. . I am so glad I brought this to you folks early as I still have time and energy for this song. Dan Last edited by DrDan; 07/31/24 05:25 PM. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818387 07/31/24 02:01 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,382 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott Veteran
Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,382 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted by DrDan thanks much - kinda fun being a producer isn't it? And certainly nice to have a producer's input. I'm no producer. Just a fresh pair of ears. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: In Need of Production Help Gordon Scott #818389 07/31/24 02:11 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	Originally Posted by Gordon Scott Originally Posted by DrDan thanks much - kinda fun being a producer isn't it? And certainly nice to have a producer's input. I'm no producer. Just a fresh pair of ears. Quote ...keep the piano going after the intro, perhaps quietly playing only chords, and bring in the guitar over the last few intro notes. ... I'm not keen on the "oohs". Would a cello or viola work? ... a long bowed low note under that final piano could be nice. The sound cuts off too sharply at present,... Don't fool yourself, this is producer input and you handled it well. Much appreciated. As long as you don't ask for more cowbell! Last edited by DrDan; 07/31/24 05:16 PM. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818396 07/31/24 05:05 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,904 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,904 Melbourne, Australia	Dan, there's lots to like about this production. There has been much constructive feedback, but the one that I agree with mostly is the song length. A time of somewhere around 3:30 would be an improvement in my view. BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818399 07/31/24 05:21 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda DrDan OP Veteran
OP DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,104 Wauconda	At end of today I have taken it down from 5:15 to 4:47 (which still includes the Jazz Chord Intro). I am working on it.... now down to 4:37, I think that will be it! I fully agreed it was too long. But I am not against a long song, if it keeps the interest. I hope this next version does that. You may be glad to hear a lot less piano and now more violin and Cello - both played by me for the most part. Time to tackle the vocals again.:D Last edited by DrDan; 08/01/24 12:48 PM. BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818410 08/01/24 02:06 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,382 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott Veteran
Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,382 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted by DrDan As long as you don't ask for more cowbell! No, that's not likely to happen. I'm much more likely to ask for a Kora, which I absolutely love. Sona Jobarteh & Band Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818608 08/03/24 08:36 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,059 Oregon jpettit Veteran
jpettit Veteran Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,059 Oregon	I would agree with Jim and David's critique. Thanks for sharing, Dan Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).

Re: In Need of Production Help DrDan #818613 08/03/24 09:36 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,068 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,068 Mi., USA	Yeah, thanks for sharing, and please post the new improved version when ready I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

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