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I'm a total newbie to recording, so forgive the naivete, but in a world where most people are using headphone/earbuds to listen to music, what's the harm in mixing with headphones? I do all my mixing with headphones, out of necessity (I don't have studio monitors, or the space for them).
I think I understand that there will be frequencies or information you might miss on headphones that aren't audible without studio monitors. But if no one ever listens to your music on studio monitors, those hidden problems are likely to stay hidden, right? I think the article I linked to in my OP gave a good summary that perhaps answers your question. I do think that it is contextual to the music world one resides in. We listen to music every time we get in our vehicle via a good sound system with a subwoofer. We kick back every evening and listen to multiple genres on YouTube via our living room Polk Audio speakers with a Yamaha sub. Janice has a pair of high end Apple AirPods and uses them when working up her vocals for a song and on a few other occasions. Also FWIW our productions are oriented toward, hopefully giving you the sound you might hear from a live band while siting on the third row in the middle ... vastly different from headphones.  Bud
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I think the article I linked to in my OP gave a good summary that perhaps answers your question. I do think that it is contextual to the music world one resides in. We listen to music every time we get in our vehicle via a good sound system with a subwoofer. We kick back every evening and listen to multiple genres on YouTube via our living room Polk Audio speakers with a Yamaha sub. Janice has a pair of high end Apple AirPods and uses them when working up her vocals for a song and on a few other occasions. Also FWIW our productions are oriented toward, hopefully giving you the sound you might hear from a live band while siting on the third row in the middle ... vastly different from headphones. Bud Fair enough, thanks for that bit of context. Unless I'm seeing live music (or making my own), 98% of my music listening is on headphones, so that's my frame of reference. But it's certainly not universal.
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I'm a total newbie to recording, so forgive the naivete, but in a world where most people are using headphone/earbuds to listen to music, what's the harm in mixing with headphones? I do all my mixing with headphones, out of necessity (I don't have studio monitors, or the space for them).
I think I understand that there will be frequencies or information you might miss on headphones that aren't audible without studio monitors. But if no one ever listens to your music on studio monitors, those hidden problems are likely to stay hidden, right? Here is one simple example: bass. Mixing with only headphones may result in a mix that has bass frequencies that do not match the volume of the rest of the audio. If you can’t hear a full bass in the headphones, you may raise the gain on the bass. Then your mix may blow someone right out of their car
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I'm a total newbie to recording, so forgive the naivete, but in a world where most people are using headphone/earbuds to listen to music, what's the harm in mixing with headphones? I do all my mixing with headphones, out of necessity (I don't have studio monitors, or the space for them).
I think I understand that there will be frequencies or information you might miss on headphones that aren't audible without studio monitors. But if no one ever listens to your music on studio monitors, those hidden problems are likely to stay hidden, right? Andrew Scheps & Fab Dupont discuss mixing with headphones. Andrew Sheps gives you the answer here Look him up if you want his list of credentials.
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I finally got around to watching the video, and it was pretty fascinating. Nice to see a different perspective, from someone with a lot of experience and success mixing on headphones. I understand the general wisdom of mixing on monitors. But for me, it's just physically not an option at the moment. For those of us in this situation, does anyone have any tips on how to make this work the best it can? The other night, I was mixing on my best pair of open-backed headphones, and it sounded good. I switched over to Airpods, and it sounded perhaps a little different, but overall still good. Then I listened in the car, and it was way off. And not just in the expected ways, such as more low end. The vocals were suddenly too prominent and the EQ on the guitar solo sounded totally different. I find the wild differences in different environments very frustration. Any tips for how to get a good, consistent mix that works everywhere, without monitors?
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I finally got around to watching the video, and it was pretty fascinating. Nice to see a different perspective, from someone with a lot of experience and success mixing on headphones. I understand the general wisdom of mixing on monitors. But for me, it's just physically not an option at the moment. For those of us in this situation, does anyone have any tips on how to make this work the best it can? The other night, I was mixing on my best pair of open-backed headphones, and it sounded good. I switched over to Airpods, and it sounded perhaps a little different, but overall still good. Then I listened in the car, and it was way off. And not just in the expected ways, such as more low end. The vocals were suddenly too prominent and the EQ on the guitar solo sounded totally different. I find the wild differences in different environments very frustration. Any tips for how to get a good, consistent mix that works everywhere, without monitors? A lot of those issues can be resolved with an effective mastering chain. We start with a reference song that is analyzed by Ozone, not AI 😀, and then tweaking the suggested module chain to our satisfaction on our kali monitors. Typically, we like the results on AirPods, HomePods, both vehicle systems and our living room system that includes a subwoofer. A big ole FWIW. Pardon the redundancy as I’ve previously mentioned some of this. Bud PS We very carefully pick the reference song, i.e., top production of the same genre, tempo, female vocals, desired vocal level and bass presence.
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For those of us in this situation, does anyone have any tips on how to make this work the best it can? The other night, I was mixing on my best pair of open-backed headphones, and it sounded good. I switched over to Airpods, and it sounded perhaps a little different, but overall still good. Then I listened in the car, and it was way off. And not just in the expected ways, such as more low end. The vocals were suddenly too prominent and the EQ on the guitar solo sounded totally different. I find the wild differences in different environments very frustration. Any tips for how to get a good, consistent mix that works everywhere, without monitors? Take a look at something like Realphones. They emulate the experience of mixing in various systems. I also listed a number of other products in a prior post. It provides a number of useful features: - It emulates different environments, such as high end monitors and car stereos.
- It compensates for different headphone frequency responses.
- It decreases the stereo effect from using headphones.
You'll still want to check the mix in real world listening conditions, but it can greatly reduce the mismatch you're currently getting by mixing on headphones. These go on sale on regular intervals, so you might wait before picking them up. Or you can check out some of the other lower-priced alternatives.
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[/quote] I finally got around to watching the video, and it was pretty fascinating. Nice to see a different perspective, from someone with a lot of experience and success mixing on headphones. I understand the general wisdom of mixing on monitors. But for me, it's just physically not an option at the moment. For those of us in this situation, does anyone have any tips on how to make this work the best it can? The other night, I was mixing on my best pair of open-backed headphones, and it sounded good. I switched over to Airpods, and it sounded perhaps a little different, but overall still good. Then I listened in the car, and it was way off. And not just in the expected ways, such as more low end. The vocals were suddenly too prominent and the EQ on the guitar solo sounded totally different. I find the wild differences in different environments very frustration. Any tips for how to get a good, consistent mix that works everywhere, without monitors? [/quote] When I mix with my AKG K240 Studio phones I also use a plugin on my master bus which gives me the closest true sound to what I am hearing. The programs EQ is matched with my headphones and gives a flat response. You can read all the details about this plugin Here . It is called SoundID Reference from Sonarworks. I will mix with these and check them also with Apple pods and my studio monitors. Brian
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There were a few things that surprised me in a video recently posted in "Best of YouTube", but in particular the effects of the lack of audio summing when using headphones, which is at about 20:55. I thought the whole video was probably useful/interesting, though I knew most of the effects well already. Video Video at 20:55
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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The thing about the Slate VSX is that it comes with a dedicated pair of headphones.
The room calibration tools out there rely on measurement mics either supplied by the manufacturer or 3rd party with calibration graphs that can be uploaded. At least there's a point of reference.
None of the other so-called solutions that I have seen do this. Ok... a plug-in designed to calibrate a pair of SONY 7506 sounds promising but the ear pads in these don't last very long and mine have been replaced with lambskin over memory foam — what plug-in compensates for that?
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re monitors/phones. well... being from london uk where several great studios lived and put out gold hits over the years i think people can sometimes over think this. its my understanding from other musos that in days of yore the gear used to create gold records was sometimes not the most optimum. everything from mic noise floors to tape noise, wow and flutter,...and many other issues....includeing monitors. gotta love those horn loaded speakers...lol. (just google for info eg 'recording studio london gear used in the 60's'). as the following thread suggests lots of gear was cobbled together. https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/54044-what-monitors-did-they-use-50s-60s.htmlnotice in the above some comments by some heavy hitters giving a usa perspective. i personally have gone round this issue a zillion times without finding a good solution whereby mixes done translate well to any listening environment...but maybe i'm just a dummie...lol. so i resign myself to the fact i just can only do the best i can... and if i fail...so be it. happiness. om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/25/24 01:10 PM.
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i personally have gone round this issue a zillion times... Yes, we know but none of it matters. You, who agonizes over the minute cost differences between two pieces of equipment that you will never buy would be horrified at the energy cost just to run that old stuff. Then add the air conditioning it takes to keep the rooms cool after that inefficient gear has heated today's rooms beyond the boiling point. The cold hard fact is that today's mixing environments are quite small compared to those good old days you like to remind us of. I don't believe that anyone making a living in the few big rooms still out there is using BIAB.
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You can send it your altered headphones to Sonarworks and they will calibrate your updated headphones to their software. Not for free though.
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Mike.
i was just trying to point out that based on my past discussions with people working in the music production industry/commercial studios, plus trade shows plus my own independent reading of lots of threads on forums where studios/AE's hang out plus my own experiences etc...
when it comes to monitoring its a dilemma for many many people.
thus my conclusion over the years is there is no perfect solution due to the large variety of different playback systems out there.,
and for myself, ive concluded that spending lots of money on the dilemma isnt necessarily the way to go.
i posted the above link to gearspace (in my last post) because i thought it might be of interest for a pg user to read the comments of someone involved in the production of great records (Bob O).
and i'll leave it at that. pg users can always do their own research on this challenging topic.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/26/24 12:42 AM.
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i personally have gone round this issue a zillion times without finding a good solution whereby mixes done translate well to any listening environment...but maybe i'm just a dummie...lol.
so i resign myself to the fact i just can only do the best i can...
and if i fail...so be it. This is basically where I have landed, at least at the moment. Since I have neither the funds nor the physical space to get the perfect solutions, I've decided to do the best I can with the imperfect situation, and remember that this is a hobby that's supposed to make me happy, not miserable and frustrated. I just posted my latest song, which was of course mixed with headphones only (User Showcase thread) . I'm sure all the mixing problems are clear (and perhaps horrifying) to the real audiophiles around here. But I remember what it sounded like at the beginning of the process, so I'm thrilled with the final result.
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Heartbreaker.
my comments...
..i listened to your song and liked it a LOT includeing the vocals.
(i'm a vocallist btw).
..what ive found in this crazy songwriting life is one could use the best studios in the world with the best mix engineers around and best monitors and still someone might find fault in some way....sooo...
..i agree just have fun. i have the same approach.
worst case one has created something out of nothing and hopefully others like it too which is a bonus.
..i have songs here that were done in big studios, and various people like them...but i also have songs/rough demoes done here with the worst of junk gear that people surpriseingly have told me they like also.
go figure.
..i wont even touch on the issue of lots of musos getting minor income from lots of net plays.
in the end i suggest not to overspend on gear these days...as even the budget gear is very good imho due to market competition.
and just enjoy the fun journey of creating songs and the satisfaction of takeing a song idea out of ones mind and actually makeing a song.
staying positive is my recommendation above all else.
i wish you the very best and liked your song.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/26/24 06:00 AM.
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just enjoy the fun journey of creating songs and the satisfaction of takeing a song idea out of ones mind and actually makeing a song. Thanks for the kind words. I totally agree with this quote, and that's probably 60% of my motivation for writing and recording songs. The other 39-40% or so is the extra satisfaction of learning and getting better at it each time. I record and mix with some of the cheapest possible gear. Is the end result something studio-quality that go straight onto the top Spotify playlists? No, but that's never been the goal. I do it just because it's fun to do it, and it feels great to see the progress I make over time.
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Our “studio" is an all purpose room in our house. The recording stuff is only a Mac, two mid priced monitors, two low end headphones for recording, an entry level Scarlet interface and a decent Rodes mic. And there’s a Bowflex also. 😀 Been recording there for 36 years. And I’m not an audiophile - not with having worn hearing aids for 12 years. My point? We don’t sweat the details including models and price of the equipment. It seems to work for us. I think the details in mixing and mastering can compensate far the price of the equipment. We been fortunate enough to have 26 BiaB based songs licensed and we receive a decent number of Spotify plays so it must work for some folks. 😀😀😀
Bud
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Our “studio" is an all purpose room in our house. The recording stuff is only a Mac, two mid priced monitors, two low end headphones for recording, an entry level Scarlet interface and a decent Rodes mic. And there’s a Bowflex also. 😀 Been recording there for 36 years. And I’m not an audiophile - not with having worn hearing aids for 12 years. My point? We don’t sweat the details including models and price of the equipment. It seems to work for us. I think the details in mixing and mastering can compensate far the price of the equipment. We been fortunate enough to have 26 BiaB based songs licensed and we receive a decent number of Spotify plays so it must work for some folks. 😀😀😀
Bud So we have more in common than I would have thought - my "studio" is also an all purpose room, including a guest bed and a Peloton.
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Our “studio" is an all purpose room in our house. The recording stuff is only a Mac, two mid priced monitors, two low end headphones for recording, an entry level Scarlet interface and a decent Rodes mic. And there’s a Bowflex also. 😀 Been recording there for 36 years. And I’m not an audiophile - not with having worn hearing aids for 12 years. My point? We don’t sweat the details including models and price of the equipment. It seems to work for us. I think the details in mixing and mastering can compensate far the price of the equipment. We been fortunate enough to have 26 BiaB based songs licensed and we receive a decent number of Spotify plays so it must work for some folks. 😀😀😀
Bud So we have more in common than I would have thought - my "studio" is also an all purpose room, including a guest bed and a Peloton. We used to have a bike trainer in our room also. We mountain bike raced for many years. But we eventually ran out of age brackets. Bud
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Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Watch the Xtra Styles PAK 18 Overview & Styles Demos video.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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