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I started mixing in the 60's and have always used monitors ... so I'm biased  but I thought this BMI article might be of interest. FWIW our kali monitors have an 8” woofer and settings allowing adjustment for how you place them. We also check our mixes on our large living room system with a sub, on our HomePod, in our vehicle and on Janice’s AirPods. And, yep, I realize this has been often discussed! The Case For Monitors (BMI) Bud
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Bud, that's a short article but it's good. I agree with everything said.
Like you I mix mostly with good monitors, but I always check a mix with headphones. Among other things, headphones are the best to reveal stereo imbalance and especially phase problems in the mix.
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Bud, I also mix using my monitors. I then check for stereo balance via headphones.
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Good article! I do a lot of "pre-mixing" on studio headphones, but mixing is never finished without monitors. I like my last pass at mixing to be on monitors at low (barely audible) volume to ensure I don't miss an imbalance that isn't as evident at high volumes. Am also sensitive to head placement when monitor mixing as my monitors are relatively close. Here's a pic on monitor placement from a Sound on Sound article. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28585&filename=Sound on Sound.jpg)
Last edited by DC Ron; 08/29/24 01:01 AM.
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Collective wisdom.
As with you folk, I mix on monitors but do critical listening on headphones while getting there.
I also check a mix on a variety of things including a couple of headphone based set ups.
The most recent track I posted, a collab with Deej, was mixed with stereo FX and panning in mind so works as both a living room true stereo & headphone approx. stereo mix.
I'm glad I like to mix with monitors because I get ear fatigue quickly with headphones/pods/buds.
Cheers
rayc
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I started mixing in the 60's and have always used monitors ... so I'm biased but I thought this BMI article might be of interest. FWIW our kali monitors have an 8” woofer and settings allowing adjustment for how you place them. We also check our mixes on our large living room system with a sub, on our HomePod, in our vehicle and on Janice’s AirPods. And, yep, I realize this has been often discussed! I'm also biased as I exclusively mix on monitors, however I do check with headphones and my home and car stereos. I find it easier to hear most mix problems with monitors (particularly phase and polarity issues). I'm glad I like to mix with monitors because I get ear fatigue quickly with headphones/pods/buds. Try some nice open-back headphones if you haven't already - they typically don't suffer from anywhere as much ear fatigue as closed-backs. AKG K240's are one of the industry standards and are inexpensive, lightweight, and sound fantastic (take a look at Beyerdynamic DT990 and Sennheiser HD600 if you feel like spending more). My K240's are coming up on 50 years old and still sound awesome (and I prefer them over my K7XX's). I also use a pair of Grado SR60e's and they're easily my most used headphones, though they're not really "flat" enough for mixing.
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Try some nice open-back headphones if you haven't already - they typically don't suffer from anywhere as much ear fatigue as closed-backs. AKG K240's are one of the industry standards and are inexpensive, lightweight, and sound fantastic (take a look at Beyerdynamic DT990 and Sennheiser HD600 if you feel like spending more). My K240's are coming up on 50 years old and still sound awesome (and I prefer them over my K7XX's). Mine were about that age when they finally gave up from me too often running over the cable with my office chair. I think the current K240 Mk2s I recently bought to replace them are not as good as the original "sextet" model.. I now use the K240 Mk2s when I'm playing my keyboard silently and K702s for more critical listening. Both are light and comfortable.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Mine were about that age when they finally gave up from me too often running over the cable with my office chair.
I think the current K240 Mk2s I recently bought to replace them are not as good as the original "sextet" model.. I now use the K240 Mk2s when I'm playing my keyboard silently and K702s for more critical listening. Both are light and comfortable. Yep, this is one of the original "sextets". I haven't tried it side by side with any newer ones, so it's hard to compare. These ones still had the original cable, which was getting a bit rough, so I ended up replacing it by 3D printing a piece that allowed me to add a Mini XLR jack. This allows me to use the cables from my K7XX.
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re IEM's. heres a story. 15 yrs ago my lovely wife got me two pairs of sennheiser iem's. cost 20 bucks each. high quality for cheap....from radio trash. weeelll one pair has gone bad and other pair is on its last legs... sigh. sooo i tried a higher priced pair of sennys. sent them back ...not in same class as the old senny 20 bukkers. drives me nuts that i cant find a great pair of budget pair of iem's. i like iem's cos i can blast away on my guitar with the iem's on and a rough old set of stereo spkrs doing old classic rock eg acdc...halen etc. so its like i'm 'there'. the old sennys could take a pounding. now anything i try is wimpy in comparison. if any one has some recommends for powerfull senny replacements... that would be great. cos i'm worried my last pair of senny iem's are gonna go bad. ive tried loads of alternatives. why companies stop producing great budget products frustrates me to no end (imho theres lots of hype re monitors.ive used huge soffit monsters down to junk and never had success finding a monitor for mixing that translates to oodles of different playback systems...maybe i'm stupid...lol. ive even had situations where pro mix engrs did a mix for me which held up on expensive monitoring systems...BUT..didnt on other different playback systems...sigh. (i dont consider myself a pro mixer or mastering engr. its a skill that only a few are adept at imho.)) btw...take a look at these budget monitor spkrs sometime...they arent wimpy low wattage spkrs like lots of spkrs today. opinions ? https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/elite-5b/or these for budget...various stereo spkrs. opinions ? https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/bookshelf-and-compact/?in_stock=1&Bundle=Nohappiness. om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/04/24 11:28 AM.
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Mine were about that age when they finally gave up from me too often running over the cable with my office chair.
I think the current K240 Mk2s I recently bought to replace them are not as good as the original "sextet" model.. I now use the K240 Mk2s when I'm playing my keyboard silently and K702s for more critical listening. Both are light and comfortable. Yep, this is one of the original "sextets". I haven't tried it side by side with any newer ones, so it's hard to compare. These ones still had the original cable, which was getting a bit rough, so I ended up replacing it by 3D printing a piece that allowed me to add a Mini XLR jack. This allows me to use the cables from my K7XX. I now wish I'd done similar. Unfortunately I ordered the new ones and disposed of the old. Mistake  A friend back when I bought the originals asked to borrow them to compare with his Stax electrostatic headphones. Crazy money headphones. His verdict was that the Stax were slightly better, but fearsomely heavy and fearsomely costly and if he'd know of the Sextets he wouldn't have bought the Stax.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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if any one has some recommends for powerfull senny replacements...
that would be great. cos i'm worried my last pair of senny iem's are gonna go bad. ive tried loads of alternatives. KB Ear KS1. Some of the best sounding IEM's I've used at any budget, and these are CHEAP (25 bucks at the moment. Replaceable cable and ear tips too. I now wish I'd done similar. Unfortunately I ordered the new ones and disposed of the old. Mistake That's a shame. These old K240's are easily my second most used headphones. They're lightweight and comfortable, not to mention they sound fantastic. Compared to the K7XX they sound similar (though the 240's are a little less bassy), but the K7's are heavier, less breathable, and rattle and squeak whenever I move my head! A friend back when I bought the originals asked to borrow them to compare with his Stax electrostatic headphones. Crazy money headphones. His verdict was that the Stax were slightly better, but fearsomely heavy and fearsomely costly and if he'd know of the Sextets he wouldn't have bought the Stax. I've heard of those - iirc they need a bespoke amplifier to power them. The K240's, despite being 600 ohm headphones, work and sound great straight out of an old iPod - although they're rather quiet without using a dedicated headphone amp.
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yeah, I need to replace my K240s, price seems to have gone down. Not sure why ..
I kinda miss them as of late. Thanks for the reminder; I get so used to just grabbing what's laying there, but I need to go ahead and get a fresh pair.
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I've heard of those - iirc they need a bespoke amplifier to power them. The K240's, despite being 600 ohm headphones, work and sound great straight out of an old iPod - although they're rather quiet without using a dedicated headphone amp. I seem to remember about 1980(?) the Stax were around £1k. For me back then the K240 'sextet' were, IIRC, about £30, which was quite a lot of money, but today the K240 MkII are £66. That alone tells a story. You can almost forget that you're wearing the K240s as they're so light. The Stax needed a headrest to avoid getting a stiff neck. Yes, the Stax have a bespoke amplifier+power-supply as the electrostatic drivers need a high voltage DC supply. I presumed the amplifier came with them, but I see they're listed separately ... today's "flagship bundle" is $11k.    My K702s have been fine ... no rattles or squeaks. Yes, bigger, heavier and a little less cool. I do think they're also not as good as the old 'sextet' 'phones were. The old 'sextet' models looked cheap for the money and I wonder if that hit sales.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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You can emulate monitors with headphones. I used to use the Focusrite VRM Box, but it no longer works with newer versions of Windows. I now use RealPhones, which emulates a number of environments. One nice feature is that it can run in as a regular Windows driver, so I can use it outside the DAW. Hornet VHS is a cheaper alternative. Waves has a number of products that emulate famous mixing studios in headphones. Goodhertz CanOpeners only focuses on adding crossfeed so you can avoid the issues of misjudging the mix because of the enhanced stereo effect of using headphones. But in order for any of this to work well, you still need good headphones.
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I've settled on what I think of as a "triangulation" method of mixing hardware using a combination of hi fi (studio phones, studio monitors) and (relatively) lo fi (ear buds, car stereo) sources. Sometimes I'll add one or two more (different phones, home entertainment system). The car stereo is usually last, but often valuable in the final tweaks...
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I've been alternating between the Steven Slate Audio VSX system and my Equator studio monitors calibrated using the ARC 4 Studio calibration for a long time. I'm comfortable mixing in either environment. For regular tracking, I've been using SONY MDR7506 for the last 35 years.
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Mike, my Facebook profile has been inundated with Slate ads of late, but every time I try to do research I end up reading what sound like paid or fake ads. SOooo...a real thing, right?
DC Ron
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Mike, my Facebook profile has been inundated with Slate ads of late, but every time I try to do research I end up reading what sound like paid or fake ads. SOooo...a real thing, right? There are two companies with Steven Slate in the name but they don't do the same thing—in fact, I don't know that he owns either anymore. The link I posted to the 'phones is real. The Essentials is $299 and comes with a few rooms—you can purchase more. The Platinum is $499 and includes all rooms along with future updates—used to be available only through their web site but I see that Sweetwater and others carry it now, too. Here's the Sweetwater link: Steven Slate Audio VSX at Sweetwater
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DC Ron
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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I'm a total newbie to recording, so forgive the naivete, but in a world where most people are using headphone/earbuds to listen to music, what's the harm in mixing with headphones? I do all my mixing with headphones, out of necessity (I don't have studio monitors, or the space for them).
I think I understand that there will be frequencies or information you might miss on headphones that aren't audible without studio monitors. But if no one ever listens to your music on studio monitors, those hidden problems are likely to stay hidden, right?
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