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Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Matt Finley #825286 10/09/24 05:53 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States Bass Thumper OP Veteran
OP Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States	Originally Posted by Matt Finley Perhaps the Song Master Pro version differs, because I have SIX stems: How well does your version do on The Fortunes Song? https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Matt Finley #825293 10/10/24 02:12 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,102 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott Veteran
Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,102 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted by Matt Finley Perhaps the Song Master Pro version differs, because I have SIX stems: Vocal Drums Guitar Bass Piano The Rest Yes it does; those are omitted from the free version. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Gordon Scott #825294 10/10/24 02:23 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,185 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 19,185 Melbourne, Australia	Ahhh, the old saying, "you only get what you pay for" <ha ha> Thanks for the clarification. BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Bass Thumper #825301 10/10/24 05:53 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,293 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,293 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Originally Posted by Bass Thumper How well does your version do on The Fortunes Song? I wonder how worthwhile the experiment would be, since this is a compressed file on YouTube. What would recordings from the 60s have had for full frequency response even to start with? BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Bass Thumper #825305 10/10/24 07:32 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 11,766 Wauconda D DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran D Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 11,766 Wauconda	I have on occasion run several different stem-splitter applications in the hope of better results. This includes SMP (full version of course), Moises (free) and Ultamite Vocal Remover - UVR. In one case I did find that UVR gave me more favorable results for one of the tracks I was working one. Other than that one instance, I have concluded all these application, based on Spleeter code, are equivalent. None are Perfect if you really want to get the the note for note of any specific track. At the same time, all are miraculus at doing, what up till a decade ago was not even imaginable. So I ran your "Fortunes" thru UVR - NO Bass track was extracted. The bass appeared in "the rest" with the rest. But are you telling me that no one has used the full paid version of SMP on this song? Final Tour - Not with a Bang but with a wimper! Ended.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass DrDan #825306 10/10/24 07:50 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 11,766 Wauconda D DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran D Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 11,766 Wauconda	Originally Posted by DrDan But are you telling me that no one has used the full paid version of SMP on this song? Here is the first 32 bars illustrating all six stems. In regards to the bass, while it is not perfect, I am confident it is good enough for SMP (or melodyne) to render it to midi and than allow you to transfer the midi to Guitar Pro where it can be "cleaned up" and viewed as TAB. This is a quantum leap from a decade ago but if you can wait another decade it will separate each track perfectly and will use the stems to create a new song for you using the same notes and also send the notes to your bass so your bass will be playing along. But don't worry if you are not there, it will do it without you. Last edited by DrDan; 10/10/24 07:59 AM. Final Tour - Not with a Bang but with a wimper! Ended.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Bass Thumper #825308 10/10/24 07:59 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,102 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott Veteran
Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,102 Hampshire, UK	Out of curiosity, has anyone tried running one of these tools on the separated output of a previous run and typically does it improve, degrade or do nothing? Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass AudioTrack #825309 10/10/24 08:08 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States Bass Thumper OP Veteran
OP Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States	Originally Posted by AudioTrack Ahhh, the old saying, "you only get what you pay for" <ha ha> AudioTrack, I do have the paid version. What version do you have? https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Matt Finley #825310 10/10/24 08:12 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States Bass Thumper OP Veteran
OP Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States	Originally Posted by Matt Finley Originally Posted by Bass Thumper How well does your version do on The Fortunes Song? I wonder how worthwhile the experiment would be, since this is a compressed file on YouTube. What would recordings from the 60s have had for full frequency response even to start with? Wheather Compressed/Not Compressed or 60s/No 60s I don't understand your question. It's a software test case and a relevant one. https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Matt Finley #825311 10/10/24 08:14 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 21,668 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 21,668 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted by Matt Finley I wonder how worthwhile the experiment would be, since this is a compressed file on YouTube. What would recordings from the 60s have had for full frequency response even to start with? Matt brings up an excellent point. Has anyone tried to use a full frequency song on any of those stem programs? I would suspect the end results would be different. Yeah, I've got O.C.D, Old, Cranky, and Dangerous. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass DrDan #825313 10/10/24 08:39 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States Bass Thumper OP Veteran
OP Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States	Originally Posted by DrDan So I ran your "Fortunes" thru UVR - NO Bass track was extracted. The bass appeared in "the rest" with the rest. But are you telling me that no one has used the full paid version of SMP on this song? Now here's a guy that's a "bird of a feather". Rather than just talk about the test case, he actually has done something physical with the test case. As mentioned above, my results with SMP did produce a bass stem, but muddled and more troubling, a gaping hole was produced. So my conclusion based on this datapoint is that SMP is superior to UVR on this test case . . . valuable info for sure. I'm certain the folks that produce SMP and UVR are well aware of their limitations and probably hard at work to produce improvements, as well as everyone else in this business space. https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass MarioD #825314 10/10/24 08:41 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,102 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott Veteran
Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,102 Hampshire, UK	I'd be more suspicious of the effects of psychoacoustic compression than of frequency response. Even 60s half-decent recordings almost certainly had above 10kHz, likely 16kHz. Grundig's 3-3/4ips recorders from the 50s claimed ~10kHz. The very old 78rpm discs were typically significantly poorer, but by the 50s vinyl was taking over. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass MarioD #825316 10/10/24 08:50 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States Bass Thumper OP Veteran
OP Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States	Originally Posted by MarioD Matt brings up an excellent point. Has anyone tried to use a full frequency song on any of those stem programs? I would suspect the end results would be different. I fail to see how Matt's point is excellent. Are we to limit ourselves to only "modern" uncompressed songs??? My answer is "No"; I want a full-fledged, full-bodied stem separator. I'm not asking for perfection, but I am asking for acceptable quality. A software team, somewhere will deliver on this. I know this because AI is powerful. https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass DrDan #825317 10/10/24 09:18 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States Bass Thumper OP Veteran
OP Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States	Originally Posted by DrDan This is a quantum leap from a decade ago Absolutely. Quantum leaps have been made and there is much more to come. but if you can wait another decade it will separate each track perfectly and will use the stems to create a new song for you using the same notes and also send the notes to your bass so your bass will be playing along. But don't worry if you are not there, it will do it without you. Some may have this as an end goal. But I'm going to modify a quote from Charlton Heston "You can have my bass when you pry it from my cold dead hands" No AI bot will being playing my bass. This is about obtaining the tab so I can learn the bassline that the original artist created. https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Bass Thumper #825318 10/10/24 10:07 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,293 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,293 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	My point is not intended to be excellent. Your test is reasonable. I am merely asking if the results might be different if we used a source file that didn’t start with the life already compressed out of it. BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Bass Thumper #825320 10/10/24 10:53 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,702 DC Ron Expert
DC Ron Expert Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,702	Was watching an Intro to Studio One Version 7 video last night and it has a built in "stem separation" function that will extract individual parts from a stem. The discussion on this feature starts at about 9:00 on this video. The example includes a bass extraction. FWIW, I'm on Studio One Version 5.5 and don't plan to update... Last edited by DC Ron; 10/10/24 10:54 AM. DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One StudioCat DAW dual screen Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Matt Finley #825321 10/10/24 11:11 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States Bass Thumper OP Veteran
OP Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States	Originally Posted by Matt Finley My point is not intended to be excellent. Your test is reasonable. I am merely asking if the results might be different if we used a source file that didn’t start with the life already compressed out of it. Matt, I have no idea if the results would be different or not. And I don't have the experience to know what to do if the results are different. I'm just searching for a full-bodied solution to this problem. If you can propose an uncompressed song to serve as Test File #2, perfect. You could extract the bass stem from the compressed file (Test File #1, supplied above) and an uncompressed file (Test File #2), with your version of SMP. I don't know how to identify an uncompressed file or how to measure its level of "compressionness". So that would be a rabbit hole for me. The majority of songs I work with are YouTube videos converted to MP3 format. I know this is not ideal from an audio quality standpoint but the number of songs available is literally staggering. But no matter what the results are, I (and thousands of others) will have to deal with compressed files in the real world. Are you proposing that an added step of uncompressing compressed files would be required? Is that even possible? If so, the nature of that would need to be established so to maintain apples-apples comparisons. PS> Shouldn't an AI trained on compressed files be able to handle compressed files? https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Bass Thumper #825323 10/10/24 11:27 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,293 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,293 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	Uncompressing a compressed file makes no improvement to the audio. BIAB provides a utility to do exactly that with compressed WMA RealTracks, along with a caution not to expect any difference in audio quality. It did provide slightly faster operation in the early days of ReslTracks. I asked about uncompressed files because I wonder if the absence of the original dynamic range, or the absence of the upper harmonics, make any difference in the algorithm’s ability to distinguish between, say, a guitar and a bass or a bass and a tuba. BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass DC Ron #825326 10/10/24 12:05 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States Bass Thumper OP Veteran
OP Bass Thumper Veteran Joined: Jun 2020 Posts: 2,388 United States	Originally Posted by DC Ron Was watching an Intro to Studio One Version 7 video last night and it has a built in "stem separation" function that will extract individual parts from a stem. The discussion on this feature starts at about 9:00 on this video. The example includes a bass extraction. FWIW, I'm on Studio One Version 5.5 and don't plan to update... Yes, I see that ver 7 has built-in stem separation plus a busload of other improvements. My experience with Presonus is that when releasing integer revisions they pack in a lot of goodies; I plan to upgrade. But even if Studio One ver 7 doesn't solve this problem, my engineering instincts tell me someone will crack it. And shortly, with no restrictions regarding compressed files or tubas in the mix. PS> Any tuba players out there, we love ya https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

Re: State-of-the-art Stem Separation for Bass Bass Thumper #825330 10/10/24 03:00 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 312 S shlind Journeyman
shlind Journeyman S Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 312	Maybe a CD with the old song originally recorded with audio equipment and originally released on vinyl and later re-released on CD as it is i.e. without any remix etc, could be seen as the "uncompressed" version of an old song (but I don't know). It could be ripped as a WAV file with Windows Media Player (legacy). To make a compressed MP3 version to use as comparison maybe one could use Audacity and select a suitable compression level (unless already available on YT

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