DISCUSSION >> IS COYOTE PLUGIN THAT BAD ? (or does it have its uses ?)
some people have said its junk. i'm not sure i can completely agree with this.
heres a little song sample with scratch one shot vocals that showcases a retro (60's ?) hammond organ patch from coyo playing the melody. dont seem bad to me...but maybe i'm stoopid. what do you think ?...link... (i'll leave it up for a few days....you can tell me my vocs suck too...lol.)
..its lightweight on pc resources ..its unobtrusive and loads fast automatically if you wish. ..it lets me get a rough song idea/chords/arrange down fast without futzing around. eg 3am this week. ..i'm not spending loads of time going thru plugin sound selections. and of course cos i find so many good sounds in fancy shmancy plugins one can get 'paralysis by analysys.' (maybe kiss is good/limited options when scratching out a song idea fast ?)
NEGATIVES.
..yes it does have various sounds i wouldnt use in a final serious song. BUT whats your take on that hammond sound patch ? i think its even nice to use in a final release ? (i tested on my wife who went 'ooh thats nice'...and believe me she is a tough critic....lol.)
in conclusion all i'm saying is maybe dont dismiss coyote out of hand ? cos what ive found is sometimes ive tried a fancy plugin and on occasion ive preferred a patch in coyote. yeah i know weird huh ? but it just seemed to 'fit' better. worst case lets take a case where coyo has a filler support rhythm role down lower in a mix. would it be usefull in that context ?
ok have at me...tell me i'm a dunce...lol
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/07/2408:58 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
om, no you are not a dunce! I use Coyote as a scratch pad. It is the only sound source I use with BiaB. Once I get the arrangement I want I drop the MIDI files into my DAW so I can use better sounds.
If you use short notes then the GM sounds are not that bad; say eighth notes (quavers) and shorter notes. Anything longer can/will show GM sound deficiencies. YMMV
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
you know what ? re single notes you hit the proverbial nail on the head. thinking back includeing a few weeks back anytime ive liked a coyo patch is single notes. but for pads i like to use other vi's. i also like various pg midi supertracks.
the thing that bugs me about vi's (and i'm at fault of course) is the libs are so BIG with so many lovely patches that i get 'bogged down' in the zillion patches. how do you handle that ? ie you love 20 patches but you need to choose one. of course then self doubt creeps in as in 'did i use the right patch' and or 'will the listener like the one i selected as to song sound picture'.
the major reason i like coyo is at the beginning of laying out a song arrange it doesnt get in the way and i'm not thinking about patches. so i can work fast trying all sorts of chord arrangements and progressions and testing how well my vocs work with different progressions and song keys.
but if i use a fancy plugin its like my concentration is diverted from the core mission of getting a good song skeleton happening and song foundation.
it seems you and i use coyo the same way.
Dan.
dont trouble yourself ive heard what ez keys can do. good product and i dont doubt what your saying. the idea was not to knock other products as there are many many good ones out there like ez etc. i just feel that coyo aint that bad for free for someone new to music production who is just starting out writing songs provided one is carefull re patch selection.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/07/2411:32 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
Mario. ........................... the thing that bugs me about vi's (and i'm at fault of course) is the libs are so BIG with so many lovely patches that i get 'bogged down' in the zillion patches. how do you handle that ?..................................... om
I hear ya! I have a few zillion software patches that I have acquired over the years. I use the old trial and error method BUT when I come to one that is close enough I quit looking. I usually have an idea about what type of sound I am looking for so that helps. However like when I am auditioning BiaB styles if I find one that I like but takes me into a different direction I will choose that one.
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
You’re not wrong. Coyote has its uses and the good news is that it is supplied free in BIAB. You might be referencing a recent thread in which I and others commented that Coyote Forte was in a different class (better) but is 32-bit and has not been updated. BIAB includes Coyote so users can at least hear something.
I come from several decades of using Roland hardware MIDI synths. I still have an Integra-7 but rarely use it now. How much easier that was! Now there is an endless number of software MIDI virtual instruments, and parameters to tweak to get great rewards in sound.
I’ve thought for a few years it might be nice if someone wrote an article on choosing software sounds for BIAB that could be in the Tips and Tricks Forum. Someone like Mario, who graciously helped me a couple of years back to find some great sounds for jazz big band, could do it and make things easier for newcomers.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Good-but-not-great GM sound engines certainly have their utility, and MAY be "good enough" for a final mix. Like Mario's rule of thumb about short notes, that's a solid tip. I've occasionally used a GM pad to good effect, too. But starting with the GM source and substituting where you need a better instrument is a good approach.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One StudioCat DAW dual screen Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
One of the reasons I am trying to avoid these discussions. If you are not getting the best sound quality why would you want to even use this tool for your music. How does faster and easier even begin to out weigh the sound quality? I would say you guys are showing your age by promoting sound from a midi soft synth lke coyote. It's 2024 not 1994! But I do regocnize that I am likely even older than most. Nuff said.
................................................ Someone like Mario, who graciously helped me a couple of years back to find some great sounds for jazz big band, could do it and make things easier for newcomers.
Thanx for kind words Matt but I do not use any VSTis in BiaB. Plus what I might choose for a sound someone else might not like.
However I suggest if one wants better GM sounds the one should get a good soundfont player, a good GM soundfont (SF2) and a soundfont editor. The editor is an option but when I was using SF2s I created various soundfonts for different genres. I had one for orchestras, one for jazz, one for rock, etc. Note the soundfont player must be one that allows all 128 GM slots to be used and one that allows all 16 MIDI channels. Google/Bing should provide paths to said SF2 info.
I hope this helps.
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Dan, I think faster and easier outweighs great sounds when you are composing. You have to be able to get fast results when ideas strike. Later when the song is we’ll-honed, you can go into production for better sounds. This is why I held on to my Roland hardware synth for so long: it was faster and easier yet good enough.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Mario, yes, that’s a good point and my other post just now supports it. I do not use VSTis in BIAB, either.
Even back in 2008 it was difficult using RealDrums then RealTracks because of the delay in regenerating a song, as opposed to MIDI. You used to hit Play/Regenerate and go make a sandwich then come back as the song was finishing. Sort of like handing the computer center a deck of punched cards in the 1970s and having them say to come back next Tuesday.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
One of the really cool features in Multitrackstudios was the ability to drop sound fonts on midi tracks with ease. i use that program for a couple years and i have to say it was so darn easy to mix good sound fonts with audio tracks when you can just add one and run it through FX in that track. I would venture a guess but one may be able to do that in BiaB.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2024, Realband, Reaper, Harrison Mixbus 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
lots of good points. (i agree Matt...lets not forget coyo is free.)
imho theres room in song creation for many diverse opinions re what sound pictures and sound choices are the correct ones.
i bet if you got various top music producers in a room to recommend what instruments should be in a song... ie...song pre-production phase....there would be various opinions.
its sorta like different people in an art gallery looking at a well known picture. each person might have different perspectives. eg i was in an art gallery once with friends looking at a picture. some of us liked it but some didnt. some neither hated it or liked it.
in summary i'm not sure one can be definitive, human nature being what it is. what is 'wow' for one person might not be for another. many times ive fallen fowl of the enigma. such as thinking a particular wonderfull sound i had slaved over people would love. only to be told by a 'normal music consumer'... what happened to that 'ratty sound in the previous version... i liked that much better.'..lol. what i'm trying to say is what us song creators might think was a great sound...the normal music listener might not from my experience.
ie...its like anything in life we all have different tastes... whether its houses or cars or anything else eg songs. all i can say is many times ive found the 'mongrel dog sound' was preferred over other sounds. yep its weird.
i used to lie awake nights worrying if a song i was doing had some validity re sound picture etc or was it c**p until a producer in good ole usa said.. 'just keep yourself happy and if other people like your song thats a bonus'. i found he was right. less stress that way. one does the best one can and thats all one can do.
anyway my wife tears me a big one if i screw up a song...lol.
ps...i often wonder if pg might be successfull doing its own plugin like a tts-1 on stereoids etc with a ton of great patch settings. and with each sound patch the user has a choice of the pristine sound or the mongrel alternative. (ive still got in the basement a old loads of sounds roland midi unit from my midi madness days...lol....remember those ?)
PS...@Rob Helms. yep mtstudio is pretty darn impressive for many reasons. i agree.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/07/2405:08 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
I'm certainly no MIDI expert.... back in the day I was a solid user of TTS which is similar. I believe Coyote is the default synth used by BB to give sound to the MIDI instruments in a style which uses MIDI.
As to whether or not Coyote or TTS is "sufficiently good enough" for a final mix..... it's not the tool as much as it is the person using the tool.
I've heard some pretty horrendous renderings of some top quality MIDI sampler instruments and on the other side of that equation, I've heard some absolutely stunning orchestral compositions using nothing but TTS.
Having BB, I do have Coyote in the machine but having Sonar, I also have TTS and selected it to be my default synth for BB.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Even semi-current Roland GM sounds are much better, FWIW. Hook up a real hardware GM synth for BiaB .. then move to DAW and replace as desired. At least that's how I work.
Juno-G, Juno-DS, Yamaha .. any inexpensive GM capable synth from the last 12 years will have better patches without a lot of the artifacts of the looping in Coyote sounds. Coyote uses a *very* compressed GM sound set that Microsoft licensed from Roland many many years ago, and then made it a Windows file. Plus hardware synths contain a ton of other sounds.
/I remember the days back when you could rename a Soundfont to replace the Windows source sound file (GM.dls) .. even that was an improvement to what MS did to that library of sounds. The whole sound set in Windows is a whopping 3MB for 128 sounds. <giggle>
Last edited by rharv; 10/08/2412:58 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
i really wish that the coyo folks would bring out a new coyo version with super duper improved sound sets. i love its simplicity of use.
ive been fooling around with some vsti's i found for rb. eg synful orchestra...kind of interesting.synful.com.
the problem i find with various vi's is some can be too time consuming... which is a prob when im working fast. whereas i can just whack in coyo in rb and away i go.
happiness.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
i really wish that the coyo folks would bring out a new coyo version with super duper improved sound sets. i love its simplicity of use.
I'm doubtful that Coyote still exist. Their internet domain coyotes.bc.ca is presently defunct and is described by WhoIs as "available". Theres is a registered domain coyotes.ca on GoDaddy, but it's not up and running. PGM used to sell ForteDXI, but I think they may now no do so.
Maybe when PGM eventually get VST3 support in BiaB and RB, we'll get some other options that are a little less fiddly to use and/or tempremental.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
re 'fiddly'...you hit the nail on the head. the reason i suggest it would be nice to have a product like coyo but with better gm sounds is i'm not trying to be selfish but i'm coming from the perspective of a new user.
i suspect you are like me and like the tech challenge of 'digging' re tech. but many people/musos i note on the net and new songwriters want 'gimme now'. without digging or even reading the manual often...lol.
(i wish someone would gimme the new uk caterham car gordon. gotta wait for a lottery win...lol.)
thus i'm coming from the marketing perspective of how to satisfy the 'gimme now' market for music apps etc etc.
one reason i like coyo when useing rb is i find a midi style demo i like... then load up the demo in rb tracks view and voila coyo is loaded with patches on the tracks and away i go then entering my own chord song arrangement. someone in pg was really thinking when this was implemented. kudos to them. in other daws ive tested ive got to futz around with plugins sometimes and setting up patches etc etc blah blah. in summary the use of coyo/rb allows me to work fast when the muse strikes.
in summary i hope people see why i like coyo when i want to work fast. i would just like some of the gm sounds to sound better. sometimes i fluke it with coyo..for example i was creating a song a few weeks back and lo and behold it gave me a nice piccolo sound that cranked me up.
imho those pg midi styles are a 'goldmine' for getting ideas down fast and laying out a chord sheet song skeleton/bed guide tracks for a new song. plus i have sooo many tracks and track generation options in rb it gives me loads of flexibility to get a rough demo going/flushing out a song. (also i can gen drum fills/solos in rb easily useing tricks.)
i hope i make some sense gordon. to come back to your 'fiddly' comment. thats what frustrates me with some plugins....ie 'fiddly'. i'm a simple soul...lol. give my regards to blighty.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/09/2403:54 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
....................................................... in summary the use of coyo/rb allows me to work fast when the muse strikes.
in summary i hope people see why i like coyo when i want to work fast. i would just like some of the gm sounds to sound better.
I agree. I use BiaB as a scratch pad using GM. Then I bring the song into my DAW and use my much better sounds there.
But be careful about what you wish for! GM has 128 different sounds and to have better sounds could have a huge impact on the file size.
Have you checked out SF2s as I suggested in an earlier message? That may be a possible solution for you.
When GM was new it was a God sent as we could pass songs back and forth and have them sound OK. Today MP3s have taken over, putting GM sound sources only for programs like BiaB and MIDI files, thus not a huge demand anymore. Most people I know use GM like I do and then substitute them with better sounds. Even PGM now has SFZ and the ability to use VSTis to accomplish that task.
Originally Posted by justanoldmuso
imho those pg midi styles are a 'goldmine' for getting ideas down fast and laying out a chord sheet song skeleton/bed guide tracks for a new song. om
I agree.
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
As a conversation piece, Coyote WT default for my BIAB is perfect for creating midi data that I use to apply Playable RealTracks to any media BIAB recognizes.
The attached screen shot is a playable Nylon strumming guitar RealTrack replacing a Nylon strumming UserTrack created by Musocity that didn't have any midi data to the track.
The blank piano roll area is playing the UserTrack and bars 10 and 11 replace the UserTrack with the Playable RealTrack. Midi data courtesy of Coyote WT.
SUPER BLINKIN' WOW re useing coyo and playable real tracks. what a fantastic tip for a new user to bb....kudos. this should be in the tips section.
ALL.
heres something else. for a looong time in rb ive been trying to get vstsynthfont 64 to work as default instead of coyo...BUT i keep on getting a nag screen for synthfont. anyone else getting this ? is this normal ? also compared to coyo it looks like if i use synthfont supplied by pg i gotta manually put in patches compared to auto in coyo.
am i a dumb 'A' ? am i doing something wrong.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/09/2407:33 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
well ive had a frustrating time trying to find something to replace coyo with a better sounding gm sound set. at the same time looking for a gm product with the ease of use and low resource useage of coyo...sigh.
such doesnt seem to exist.
the problem i find with lots of vi's as i said earlier is many times the time taken with them compared to coyo and complexity of some vi's.
lol...basically i want coyo on steroids ie coyo pro lets say. if anyone knows a vi with gm support and coyos ease of use/ease of setup on a track while being light on pc resources...gimme a shout.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/11/2401:20 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
well ive had a frustrating time trying to find something to replace coyo with a better sounding gm sound set. at the same time looking for a gm product with the ease of use and low resource useage of coyo...sigh.
such doesnt seem to exist.
the problem i find with lots of vi's as i said earlier is many times the time taken with them compared to coyo and complexity of some vi's.
lol...basically i want coyo on steroids ie coyo pro lets say. if anyone knows a vi with gm support and coyos ease of use/ease of setup on a track while being light on pc resources...gimme a shout.
happiness.
om
I suspect that, to some extent at least, better sounding and the same low resource usage may be somewhat contradictory.
What I find frustrating is that even VSTSynthFont64, which PGM quietly bundle with BiaB but don't talk much about, sounds pretty good with a good soundfont, but is just a bit of a pain to use with BiaB. In fact nearly(?) every other synth seems a pain with BiaB. I don't know about with RB.
Like so many things, I struggle to understand why PGM don't polish these things more. Perhaps in this case it's because they see RTs as the main product and don't really care aboit MIDI.
As I think a couple of people have said, maybe use Coyote to rough out an idea, then transfer the MIDI to a DAW and use decent VSTis. The problem, of course, is that isn't the workflow you want, at least in the early stages.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
heres a fascinating mode of operation or a 'quirk' in bb illustrating a major advantage of haveing coyo in bb preferences as the default synth. viz...
IF i use any other default vst other than coyo in bb preferences one would think logically... (and i'm thinking of a new user getting confused on this) THAT playing back the midi style demo or double clicking on a midi style the non coyo default plugin sounds would be played. (eg lets say i set bb default to sforzando OR synthfont or whatever say the 'stupid om plugin' that i just programmed...lol..)
BUT NO even though i have changed the default plugin from coyo to another plugin in bb preferences.. guess what ?? yep coyo sounds are still used in auditioning a style demo. obviously the reason being i guess cos i'm useing a non gm plugin.
THUS given the above a bottom line advantage of coyo as default is i save time cos i dont have to faff around spending time setting up sound patches. WHEREAS if i use another default like sforzando or something else i DO have to manually set up the sound patches. ie score +1 for coyo.
now one can imagine if one is useing a lot of midi tracks going non coyo as default means a lot of patch set up work. ie time spent away from working fast cos of auditioning of sound patches. (i wont even mention the flexibility of rb with a capability of oodles of midi tracks.)
in summary if one isnt useing coyo one might have to do lots of pacth setting up. see what i mean ? this week ive been doing a ton of testing to see if i can use a non coyo default plugin whereby i dont have lots of patch set up work. ie like coyo if i use any other default plugin can i get it so patches are set up automatically ? but to no avail. bottom line is i have to choose either coyo as default as the patches are set up for me thus i can do fast chord arranges OR another default plugin whereby i have to set up the manually.
now i'm no synth guru like many users on pg but i suspect the reason i'm gettin g probs when useing a non coyo default plugin is its not GM...right ??
see my dilemma ?
ive tried various workarounds to no avail. what is REALLY INTERESTING is in bb mixer even though in the plugin section it says 'default synth' when useing a non coyo default plugin i still have to go through for each track and load the non coyo plugin...so it says then 'sforzando' or whatever.
i can only conclude from the above that useing coyo there are some pg programming routines that set up the patches for the user. if so +1 to coyo whereas not useing coyo the same pg programming routines dont apply ?? which leaves me pondering if i were useing TTS-1 GM plugin... WOULD THE PATCHES BE SET UP AUTOMATICALLY ??
any synth pro's feel free to jump in and comment. eg matt or charlie or other users as i dont consider myself a synth pro. am i correct in thinking that useing a gm default plugin i wouldnt have to go through the arduous task of setting up patches for each track ?? OR say if i used halion sonic ...its gm ?? aah the joys of creating songs...lol.
@Gordon.
1..re 'contradictory'. yes i agree. very good point. 2..re RT's. what i like to do is use coyo to get the arrange down fast useing midi styles.. then haveing that firmed up i start auditioning rt styles and rt/rd/supertrack content etc.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/12/2402:30 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
Yes, if you use TTS-1 or any other ***GM VSTi*** as your default synth, BiaB will assign the proper instrument to each channel/track. But there aren't that many GM VSTi synths any more. The "trick" is that a ***GM*** VSTi can receive up to 16 different patch changes/instrument assignments using GM protocol. Most non-GM VSTis, like Sforzando, do not respond to GM protocol. Yes, this is confusing.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One StudioCat DAW dual screen Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
yep nailed it. not many options for what i want. looked for gm rompler plugin also. but cant find gm ones. i wish that pg would do a coyo type plugin with better sounds.
note looked at halion sonic free to test but gotta set up an account...sigh. oh well....fed up with haveing to set up accounts all the time.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/12/2405:56 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
JOM, could you post a list of what you've tried and, in outline, what about them doesn't work for you?
I've been trying to think of possibilities that may work that you haven't tried. One is FluidSynth, which comes from the Linux world and has been the de-fact soundfont player for years. It is available for Windows. The easiest to use that I've seen, though, is VST3 only, which BiaB doesn't yet support, nor CLAP, nor LV2, so plenty of dead ends. There are some older VST versions about, but claimed 'harder to use'.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
mainly sforzando and vstsynth font....probs being the time it takes to set up lots of patches if one has say a load of midi tracks going on versus coyo which does it automatically.
i did come across x42 and even dloaded it...but win went bonkers with a warning when i tried to install.
anyhoo ive posted a wish in wishlists for a good gm plugin sorta like the ease of use of coyo but better gm sounds.
respect.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
My go to midi synth in BIAB is VSTSynthFont. You say "...probs being the time it takes to set up". I have never had that problem! It may be because I simple don't use much midi in BIAB anymore. I long ago take all that to my DAW. Otherwise, maybe it is because I know how to use it. So when I do I have no problem using it essentially as a plug and play. Could you be having troubles because you don't know how to use it? You just need to push a few buttons. Then save the file and the set up is done for that song. 1 minute at most! Notice I use the Coyote Forta GM SF files so I get the high quality of those sounds.
Have you done a successful install of the current version of VSTSynthFont?
Can I try to do a video for you about how it is set up?
mainly sforzando and vstsynth font....probs being the time it takes to set up lots of patches if one has say a load of midi tracks going on versus coyo which does it automatically.
i did come across x42 and even dloaded it...but win went bonkers with a warning when i tried to install.
anyhoo ive posted a wish in wishlists for a good gm plugin sorta like the ease of use of coyo but better gm sounds.
respect.
om
Right, thanks.
As I'm sure you know, sforzando won't handle multiple instruments, so it's a long way from GM compliant. I've found VSTSynthFont performs well, but we certainly agree that it's clumsy to manage.
I installed the x42 synth, but it's LV2 only, so BiaB won't recognise it. Windows popped up a warning that the publisher was unknown, but I've long know of Robin, so I wasn't too worried about proceeding with the install.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
i might go thru a ton of midi styles pg demos rapidly. useing coyo as default in bb means i'm not setting patches up all the time cos midi styles can vary as to the patches in the pg demo styles. therefore i cant set up one patch map that applies to all midi styles. because then i wouldnt get audio diffs tween the many different styles.
now maybe i'm a dunce and doing something wrong...so.. if you have a vid...sure i would be glad to see it. i am always open to new ideas. just show me...lets take vstsynthfont as default bb synth in prefs how the patches automatically change as i go rapidly through all the pg midi demo song styles. therein lies the rub. with coyo i dont have such worries....all done automatically.
your right i'm no synth pro.
one reason i want to use midi more to rapidly lay out song ideas is genning is instantaneous in bb/rb. i like to work fast. also i'm not being selfish re my needs...ive got a fast ryzen pc. blink of an eye in new bb tracks view. love it. but i'm thinking of users with old clunky pc's whereby genning lots of audio tracks at same time might take some time. so for that type of user i think they might like useing lots of midi tracks with a nice default gm synth that sounds great. thanks for your comments.
respect.
om
Gordon.
i agree mate. its a dogs breakfast lol. happiness.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/12/2402:22 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
if you have a vid...sure i would be glad to see it. i am always open to new ideas. just show me...lets take vstsynthfont as default bb synth in prefs how the patches automatically change as i go rapidly through all the pg midi demo song styles. therein lies the rub. with coyo i dont have such worries....all done automatically.
Quick and dirty just seeing if we are on the same page.
but what i'm talking about is a tad different. please try the following.
(ENSURE COYO IS DEFAULT IN BB PREFS MATE.)
1. layout some chords in default style. 2..ensure bb mixer is displaying patches. 3..in bb F7 brings up styles. 4..now double clik on style SWIFTBAL...notice the patch display shows jazz drums patch 33. 5..now double clik on TRADJAZZ style...notice now the drum patch is different and now is standard drum kit 1.
ie with use of coyo above is automatic. notice how the sound changes tween SWIFTBAL and TRADJAZZ ?
now the question becomes useing synthfont as default will the sound change change tween SWIFTBAL and TRADJAZZ . this is the nub of it. with coyo gm it does. but other non gm plugins as default doesnt.
hopefully ive explained properly the problemo.
its all very fiddly sadly.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/12/2405:48 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
What? It plays the correct patch without any fiddling. I just did all that fiddling to show you how it was doing it. Just load the midi file and hit play. Let me see if I can follow your instructions above.
I have tried a lot of SF2 players and none of them are as convenient as Coyote. I did find one that worked exactly like Coyote BUT you had to load it with a SF2 every time you either changed songs or started BiaB. There used to be some SF2 players that worked like Coyote but since GM is a dying breed there isn't any VST2s that work like that any more, at least I haven't found one yet. Maybe if/when BiaB can use VST3s that will change.
Have you ever noticed there are no lines to a bathroom at a water park?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
When we posted about the demise of the TTS1, I asked what PG would be using as their default GM synth (Peter Gannon posted a while back that for testing and style develoment they used the TTS1), Simon said discussions were ongoing. Would be nice to know what they have decided as surely it would do exactly what we want for playing GM standard midi?
OMG I figured it out!!! The fix is so easy!! Even a child could do it !!!! Oh the DRAMA of it all! This is the death of Coyote DXi. Wait for it.... video to follow.
This may have been mentioned, but the comment that increasing the size of any replacement might make BIAB a problem on old machines with little storage, makes sense. I thought we were told that Coyote is small because it is not even a sound library; instead it allows use of the built-in Microsoft sounds. This explains why it’s so small, easy to use, and rather poor in sound quality.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Matt, This is the description of size for the recent VILabs Modern D Piano: 34,615 samples composing 118GB wave data in a tidy 18GB file. Massive library, small footprint thanks to lossless compression and complex scripting. This also means fast loading and efficient CPU usage. And that is just the piano!
Now compare this to VSTSynthFont Setup file at 18.1 Mb and the coyote forte SF2 file at ~188.0 MB
Compared to Coyote Wave Table at ~200K
The Coyote Wave Table is dead! We all need to think bigger!
The wait is over! Sorry for the excessive narrative. As you know I am a consultant and I tend to ramble on when given the stage. But hang in there till the end and you will see the point of all this.
I warned you I can drone on and on and I can be a bit of a Drama King. But I hope I have made a more important point. The VSTSynthFont is fully able to play GM sounds from BIAB with sound quality that far exceeds the Coyote WaveTable synth. If one is concerned the size of the synth has now increased from 200K to ~200M, just delete a few of the banjo RTs and you will find the room.
ok i got vstsynthfont installed includeing GM font. first off kudos to Dan for his patience and help in this. much appreciated Dan.
its still early days as i have lots more testing to do. but heres some initial observations. in this context i'm coming from the aspect of a new pg user. heres my honest feelings which let me stress are not meant to upset anyone.
1..i feel a default NICE SOUNDING gm sf should be included with the shipped bb/rb package. this would save both befuddling a new user and the user needing to download the sf. eg 'where perchance doth i get this sf from in google.' 2..i would suggest a step by step guide for new users including a vid to help with set up as well as how to use when auditioning pg midi styles via double clicking. it sorta confused me initially until Dan kindly guided me through the install process. such a guide should also mention housekeeping tasks like setting up in win a sf dir and putting the sf into it as well as how to set up synthfont app....eg setting default in bb / going to the special synthfont dialog options and specifying which sf to use etc etc. 3..as to sound quality...yes...better than coyo but obviously not as good as various vi's ive heard or RT's.. but i'm gonna check out other sound sets eg...'timbres'. in summary...yes...usefull but didnt knock my socks off....otoh i would not expect such.
finally in summary there is more set up by the user required over coyo and learning how the various features of synthfont vst work. which obviously experienced bb users could figure out.. but when it comes to a new user, maybe even new to music production...particularly a 'gimme now' user...i feel their level of patience might be tested cos lots of new people want fast results these days. 'gimme a hit now' sorta idea.
i hope ive given a fair and unbiased opinion.
once again thanks to Dan for his patience and help.
happiness.
om.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/13/2402:08 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb.)
I warned you I can drone on and on and I can be a bit of a Drama King. But I hope I have made a more important point. The VSTSynthFont is fully able to play GM sounds from BIAB with sound quality that far exceeds the Coyote WaveTable synth. If one is concerned the size of the synth has now increased from 200K to ~200M, just delete a few of the banjo RTs and you will find the room.
OK .. I think I'm more comfortable now with some of what's happening and has happened in the past.
For me at present, I don't have to hit play twice ... once is enough. I haven't (yet?) tried to find out why.
Some of those 25-years-old BiaB quirks have definitely muddied the waters for me ... Channel labes, names, patches, whatever. I only have to wrongly trust one of those and all bets on my trust are off.
You have similar patchnames not matching the GM names as I and that also had definitely mislead me and confused me.
Of course in the past I've set patches on VSTSynthFont to those I think I want, believing that BiaB wasn't setting them, only to have them then 'mysteriously' changed when the song plays. Especially if in the past it's maybe been on the second press of play.
I have two things to take from this: 1) VSTSynthFont can work exactly as one would like, subject to a couple of cautions/caveats. 2) There is so much historic and variable 'cruft' in BiaB, I'm not in the least surprised that people get confused and, probably, angly.
Personally these days I think a couple of hundrem MB for a decent soundfont is pretty much neither here nor there. If one is reallt desparate for memory, even FluidSynth's tiny default SF2 is only 8M and sounds much better than Coyote. ToH is ~ 426M. Compifont is nearly a Gig. I could probably use that on a Raspberry Pi.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
I have two things to take from this: 1) VSTSynthFont can work exactly as one would like, subject to a couple of cautions/caveats. 2) There is so much historic and variable 'cruft' in BiaB, I'm not in the least surprised that people get confused and, probably, angly.
Could not agree more. Great summary. The only question now is, based on that conclusion, will we get more folks to switch their default synths?
I warned you I can drone on and on and I can be a bit of a Drama King. But I hope I have made a more important point. The VSTSynthFont is fully able to play GM sounds from BIAB with sound quality that far exceeds the Coyote WaveTable synth. If one is concerned the size of the synth has now increased from 200K to ~200M, just delete a few of the banjo RTs and you will find the room.
Hi Dan. I didn’t mean to belittle your helpful and valuable (if puzzling) discovery in any way. It does sound as if you’ve solved a mystery that was bothering others, and you went to a lot of trouble. The video was very clear.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Very cool thread. Appreciate the research and nice video by Dan, and the collaboration by all. I have a GM synth I'm quite happy with in Roland so won't be switching. But this is a great thread, and I haven't been able to take my eyes off of it. Oh, and I learned a new word (cruft!), too.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One StudioCat DAW dual screen Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
The only question now is, based on that conclusion, will we get more folks to switch their default synths?
I think it's atually fairly easy to achieve, but also very easy to get things wrong and get into a mess and/or get confused.
This really needs a HowTo and/or a sticky thread that walks through the process and warns of the stuff to ignore. I wonder if your set-up post and the video(s) put together in one post and pinned would be enough. I have to say I find it puxxling that PGM themselves haven't affressed this some time ago.
It's telling that PGM don't have that and that if one goes to the "dare to compare" page, they compare RealTracks with a number of older and mostly discontinued synths, including ForteDXi, which has a link to a now non-existent PGM web page of their own. Of course they're selling RTs here, so a comparatively good, later generation, synth and soundfont may be giving the wrong message for them.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2024 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Thanks Dan for your informative video. I don't have VSTSynthfont activated on my system so I can't test, however, I suggest when you change Styles and patches, to try resetting using the Generate and Play button rather than hitting play twice and that may eliminate the double click. .
I think I tried that. Still took double click. But you may be right, I was pushing a lot of buttons at the time. So Charlie what do you use for your midi synth in BIAB?
Generate Lyrics for your Band-in-a-Box songs with LyricLab!
Need some lyrics to complete your Band-in-a-Box song? LyricLab is here to help!
LyricLab (by Joanne Cooper) is an AI-powered tool designed to quickly create lyrics and chords to fit your music. Just enter a rough idea of your lyrics, and let the AI bring them to life. Once you're happy with the results, simply import the LyricLab file into Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or newer. From there, you can pick your style and generate melodies to match your song’s chords!
Ci siamo dati da fare e abbiamo aggiunto oltre 50 nuove funzionalità e una straordinaria raccolta di nuovi contenuti, tra cui 222 RealTracks, nuovi RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 3, Playable RealDrums Set 2, due nuovi set di "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 e altro ancora!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK & 7, Xtra Styles PAK 17 & 18, und mehr!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 apporte plus de 50 fonctions nouvelles ainsi qu'une importante de contenus nouveaux à savoir : 222 RealTracks, des RealStyles nouveaux, des SuperTracks MIDI, des Etudes d'Instruments, des Prestations d'Artistes, des "Morceaux avec Choeurs", un Set 3 de Tracks Jouables, un Set 2 de RealDrums Jouables, deux nouveaux Sets de "RealDrums Stems", des Styles XPro PAK 6 & 7, des Xtra Styles PAK 17 & 18, et bien plus encore!
New! XPro Styles PAK 7 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 7 with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 50 RealTracks and RealDrums that are sure to delight!
With XPro Styles PAK 7 you can expect 25 rock & pop, 25 jazz, and 25 country styles, as well as 25 of this year's wildcard genre: Celtic!
Here's a small sampling of what XPro Styles PAK 7 has to offer: energetic rock jigs, New Orleans funk, lilting jazz waltzes, fast Celtic punk, uptempo train beats, gritty grunge, intense jazz rock, groovy EDM, soulful R&B, soft singer-songwriter pop, country blues rock, and many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 7 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box 2024® with XPro Styles PAK 7! Order now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2024 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box 2024 for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 18 for Band-in-a-Box version 2024 is here with 200 brand new styles to take for a spin!
Along with 50 new styles each for the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, we’ve put together a collection of styles using sounds from the SynthMaster plugin!
In this PAK you'll find: dubby reggae grooves, rootsy Americana, LA jazz pop, driving pop rock, mellow electronica, modern jazz fusion, spacey country ballads, Motown shuffles, energetic EDM, and plenty of synth heavy grooves! Xtra Style PAK 18 features these styles and many, many more!
Special Pricing! Until September 30, 2024, all the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 18 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea)! Expand your Band-in-a-Box 2024® library with Xtra Styles PAK 18! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 18 here.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 18 requires the 2024 UltraPAK/UltraPAK+/Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you over the phone. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday, and 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST Saturday. We are closed Sunday. You can also send us your questions via email.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you on our Live Chat or by email. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday; 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST (GMT -8) Saturday; Closed Sunday.
![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28790&filename=Screenshot 2024-10-12 163934.png)
![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28791&filename=Screenshot 2024-10-12 164555.png)
I figured it out!!! The fix is so easy!! Even a child could do it !!!! Oh the DRAMA of it all! This is the death of Coyote DXi. Wait for it.... video to follow. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28792&filename=got-it-baby.gif)
But I hope I have made a more important point. The VSTSynthFont is fully able to play GM sounds from BIAB with sound quality that far exceeds the Coyote WaveTable synth. If one is concerned the size of the synth has now increased from 200K to ~200M, just delete a few of the banjo RTs and you will find the room. 
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean