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Ok - I'll go first. I'm working on the Cherry Lane transcription to John Denver's "Country Roads". I'm comfortable with fingerpicking - but there's so many different changes to the patterns in this song it's giving me a real challenge to memorize it and play it fluently. Now I know I don't have to play the arrangement as in that transcription - I'm not even sure John came up with that arrangement, but if he did, it's really brilliant, giving that "simple" song an understated sophistication.
Also working on "Cat's in the Cradle" transcription, and that one is also tricky.
Now I know I don't have to play the transcription as written, and most people would have no idea, for most of these fingerpicking songs - but it's the fine, subtle picking patterns and rhythms that make the overall song/arrangement sound so good (IMHO). Also on this song, the key really confuses me. The chords to the verse are:
A_________ C_________ D _________ A
My child.... Came to... usual way
What key is this ? I suppose maybe A with a borrowed chord C from A minor ? How would you solo or improvise over that when you reached the C chord ? In the chorus you have the chords
A _________ G_________ C _________ D
And the cat's... Silver spoon Little boy blue....
Again -what key ? A with some chords borrowed from A minor ? And same question ....
Also - what other songs use a similar progression as that in the Cat's in the Cradle ?
Last edited by Joe Videtto2; 11/07/24 05:07 PM.
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Your question about the Key for Harry Chapin's Cats in the cradle is classic and has been discussed before. "...The A, C, and D are based around fitting the A minor pentatonic melody. Basically blues let's you get away with mashing any major chord into that scale. The walk down from G is a temporary modulation to G major, which as a key isn't very far from A mixolydian, which I'd put the overall song in. Now in the G major section normally the walk down would take you from C to Em, then Am, D, G. But at this point he's strongly established A major as the home chord. If the song were in G, the A major would sound like a secondary dominant pulling to D7, but it doesn't. Your brain lets that short section in G jump right back to A." https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/65t0ge/why_does_cats_in_the_cradle_work/
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The Six Wives of Henry VIII (Wakeman/Yes)
Hopefully don't have to explain why
I had to buy the transcription and actually read some parts of it to learn it. Felt like I was back in school again.
Last edited by rharv; 11/08/24 04:09 PM.
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Circa 1962, Chuck Berry's Johnny B Goode!
I actually ruined that album trying to learn all of those licks!
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
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In the key of A, all of these chords CAN sound right (to me), depending on context: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. I find the slippery harmonic shifts like C# to C a bit mind bending and (potentially) a lot of fun. Posted this tune a few months ago that exercised most of these ideas, just in the key of G. The "wrong" chords helped me express the disorienting effect of being lost in a big city rainstorm...
Last edited by DC Ron; 11/08/24 06:12 PM.
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Hummmm... I'd have to say.... Saddle Tramp* by Charlie Daniels (*the second part) .... and Green Grass & High Tides by The Outlaws. I was in a country rock band at the time with two guitars, bass and drums and we were playing a lot of the songs of that era. And a couple of the songs off Frampton Comes Alive. Those Frampton songs were just fun tunes to learn. One day while I was working on one of the songs on that album, I heard a knock at my door followed by "open up, Police". I won't bore you with the details since I've told it before, but the elevator version is it was a drummer and a bass player from a working band. They came in and listened and invited me to jam with them that night at a local club. I ended up being hired as a full time lead guitarist for their band.
I don't know that any of them were particularly difficult to learn. Challenging was probably a better word if you wanted to learn it note for note. I took a few days of listening and learning to pull them off. Another fun tune was Sultans of Swing because it has lots of little tasty fills throughout.
If you're not familiar with the songs I named.... go listen to them on YouTube.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Harlem Nocturne, - the Viscounts version.
I was a kid. Back then, we didn't have the written music resources we do now. The only things available were at the rack in the music store. There were no fake books, except the illegal ones traded by the then older, pro, musicians. So I learned it by ear.
For the sax it's in F#, which for a not yet mature saxophonist, is a * tricky key.
I wore out and eventually damaged the vinyl record, and it took quite a few hours, picking out the notes, one at a time.
But it was a labor of love, good ear training, and the song served me well for many decades on stage.
Today, I make my own backing tracks, drums, bass, and comp parts, and Mrs. Notes and I play and sing live on top of those tracks. Having sheet music available, an ear trained with many years experience, and physical skills also developed, songs aren't that hard. They can be very time consuming, learing all the parts, and often there are problems to be worked out, but nothng as hard as an untrained ear picking the notes out, one at a time, using a record player as the source.
Notes ♫
* for the guitarist in the group. Unlike guitar, the sax fingering for the same song is quite different in every key. F# was a difficult key a the time, although, I eventually learned to love it. F# on the tenor sax is E on the guitar, the Bb sax is tuned two half steps higher.
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.......................................
* for the guitarist in the group. Unlike guitar, the sax fingering for the same song is quite different in every key. F# was a difficult key a the time, although, I eventually learned to love it. F# on the tenor sax is E on the guitar, the Bb sax is tuned two half steps higher. I got a chuckle out of the above. I joined my first wedding band in 1970 and the leader was a saxophonist. I had to learn how to play in all of the flat keys. Eb is one of the hardest keys for a guitarist to play, that is until you really learn it. Luckily I could read music so that helped. PS - I still have one of those original "illegal" fake books! I had to buy one so I could practice in those darn flat keys!
Unclear if the pianist is a total beginner or a professional jazz player?
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Many of my sax and trumpet playing friends adore Bb, Eb and Ab. I think because a lot of standard jazz and big band tunes are written in that key.
I've known pianists who like the flat keys because they can feel the black keys on the piano without looking at it.
Since I was in Jr. High, instead of brass bands, I've played with guitarists in rock bands. I'm more comfortable in concert E (F# on tenor sax), A (B on sax), G (A on sax) than I am in Eb or Ab.
For rock/blues songs I prefer concert E, F, and G due to the characteristics of the tenor sax (F#, G, A.) and how the tone changes at the octave break. But I can play in any key, some more fluently than others, only because more songs are in those keys.
Play in any key often enough, and your muscle memory will eventually make it comfortable.
For those who don't know, when changing the key on the sax, the fingering is entirely different. So learning a song in one key, and then modulating it up a half step, is like learning the song all over again.
Fast forward >> and the seventh instrument I learned how to play is guitar. Playing a song in C that changes to C# at the end. What? I don't have to change the fingering, just move my hand up a fret? Wow!!! Wanna change it again??? And again!?!?!?!?
On the other hand, reading music is much easier on the sax. One note at a time, and no choice about which of the multiple same note positions on the fretboard to choose.
But of all the instruments I've learned, what I call the 8th is the most difficult - voice. On the sax, I press the right buttons and the right note comes out. The voice doesn't work that way. I spent more time devoping how to be an adequate singer than I did on any other instrument I've tried so far.
Notes ♫
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& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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For those who don't know, when changing the key on the sax, the fingering is entirely different. So learning a song in one key, and then modulating it up a half step, is like learning the song all over again. Well, yeah. Same with a lot of other instruments. Moving up a half step on any brass instrument is totally different too (and to be honest may affect my note choices at times, not because of the note, but because how that fingering would sound ..)
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I've known pianists who like the flat keys because they can feel the black keys on the piano without looking at it. An interesting approach, that I guess might work for some. I don't know the full explanation, but I can sit at a piano, close my eyes and then play any note or chord with my left hand. Black keys don't usually matter. I was at a George Shearing concert many years ago, and he mentioned that someone had asked him how did he know where Middle C was? To the audiences amusement, he stated that it was simple: "it was the C note nearest to the key lock on the piano" 
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Mornin' everyone.... I'm just a rhythm guitarist/song writer. There is (2) that come to my mind right away. When I do select a cover to flesh out I adhere to the original as best as I can. So, for me: 1) Kid Charlemagne: Steely Dan Lots of changes and many different ways to play it. With the help of my collaborator-in-chief (Ken Lasaine) I finally chose my way to play it and it took me a couple months to actually get comfortable with it. 2) Rio De Janiero Blue: Randy Crawford. A very smooth, captivating song with impeccable vox by Randy. Coming up with the best way to play the chords was a challenge for me. Thanks to Kens' help again I stuck with it and became 'comfortable' with this one too. My version of both is on my YT page if remotely curious. I was quite nervous when recording both of these and almost screwed up the KC take early on but got lucky and recovered my rhythm playing composure. Happy Veterans Day and my respect to all that have served honorably. Carry on.
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 11/11/24 05:09 AM.
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<...snip...>
An interesting approach, that I guess might work for some. I don't know the full explanation, but I can sit at a piano, close my eyes and then play any note or chord with my left hand. Black keys don't usually matter.<...> I was in a band that hired a blind pianist, Gilbert Montagne, who went beck to France and became a major star. He could play in any key and could hear the changes without asking what the chords were on songs he played for the first time. On the other hand, I've noticed a lot of Stevie Wonder songs are in flat keys. I guess it depends on the player. I'm not a good enough pianist to play without looking at the keys when I need to move hand positions. Same with guitar. Since sax/windsynth/flute occupy most of my playing time, I just haven't put in the thousands of hours required for that skill. But I still get a little delight in changing keys on the guitar, and keeping the same fingering.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I was at a George Shearing concert many years ago, and he mentioned that someone had asked him how did he know where Middle C was? To the audiences amusement, he stated that it was simple: "it was the C note nearest to the key lock on the piano" Oh, right, that's my problem then ... my MP6 doesn't have a key lock. 
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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I've known pianists who like the flat keys because they can feel the black keys on the piano without looking at it. An interesting approach, that I guess might work for some. I don't know the full explanation, but I can sit at a piano, close my eyes and then play any note or chord with my left hand. Black keys don't usually matter. I was at a George Shearing concert many years ago, and he mentioned that someone had asked him how did he know where Middle C was? To the audiences amusement, he stated that it was simple: "it was the C note nearest to the key lock on the piano" I've told this before.... At a church I attended several years ago, I was in the orchestra. We had 3 really, really good piano players who swapped out or one was on the piano and the other on a synth/organ. The other one was the music minister and was the conductor. You could put a piece of music in front of any of them that they had never seen or heard before. Didn't matter what the key was. They could look at it, and then play it flawlessly like they'd been playing it their entire lives. BUT, tell them we're going to jam in the key of A major with a 1-4-5 progression and they had no clue what you were talking about and they were, in fact, unable to play along. Of course, I was just as clueless on the flip side when I was presented with a piece of sheet music with 5 flats and no chord charts. Practically everything we played on the stage at that church was in the keys of Bb, Eb, and Ab. It was interesting, to say the least, to play along with the orchestra. Yeah, an no capo.... I'd learned the chords and didn't use one and that blew the mind of the other guitar player.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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