PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Songwriting AI and lawsuits

And all the more disturbing given the rapidity for which it is moving into the medical field.

J&B

Remember MYCIN?

Back in the day, AI meant expert systems, with inference engines driven by rule-based systems using knowledge derived from subject matter experts. AI moved from LISP to Prolog.

Fuzzy logic was a big thing, because it dealt more robustly with edge cases and gaps. But systems were still build from a knowlege engineering perspective.

Now we're at the point where neural networks are fed tons of data, and we don't care about the inner workings. As long the error measure is below some given level, the system is fit for use.

Strange days.

It appears that some controls are being brought into place:

https://alvaromontoro.com/blog/68057/ai-act-is-here

Maybe. Nothing I've read about this mentions Copyrights.

Yes, who knows where this is leading? Maybe nowhere? Maybe the thin end of the wedge?

Rick Beato - amen!

I actually shed a tear, because he just nailed it, and exposed the flip side of any art in our society today.

I'm guilty of being an active Apple Music Subscriber, I used to subscribe to Netflix/Amazon/Disney/HBO, I subscribe to Storytell and on my TV I subscribe to put art on my Samsung The Frame TV.
I can have everything at my fingertips, easy and convenient - but I value it less, than what I used to do.
I have so many choices on how to spent my spare time with art. You can add social media, gaming etc to that equation.'

The interesting thing is, what I actually value is music I listened to in the past - with very few exceptions. I value watching and learning about historical things - especially understanding the 60's, 70 and the 80's better with the historians perspectives. I value real acting, comedy performed live and listening to books (in the car while I drive) and last but not least - listening to radio...not music radio - old fashion radio where real people share experiences, exchange views and perspectives.

Especially with streaming and social media, it is very difficult to balance these things in a meaningful way - since algorithms and AI just feed me the same things over and over again.

As an extensive user of BIAB for more than a decade, using other composer aid tools as well - I also somehow add to the Rick Beato's drain is his kitchen sink. But without some of these wonderful tools, I wouldn't be spending hours trying to improve my singing, song writing, guitar playing ....the list goes on. I think the main difference is, that I want to control the full process, and try to replace even Real Tracks to see if I can do it more like my own work. With the AI tools on trial, I feel that I'm no longer in the driving seat of the process. I guess that's a matter of taste and experience with the various tools

I would have loved to be part of a band, but the chance and option never came my way. I never started making music to become rich and famous (I dreamt of that in a younger age), but especially BIAB became my band. For others their AI became their band.

The funny thing is - that since I have 50+ songs out there, the AIs might even feed on my music (probably to learn what not to do ... ) So maybe the safest bet is for the AIs to learn from the masters and generate artistic questionable or even poor music, that the Air will learn from again - maybe a downward spiral, might change music business again, and make room for the talented, the creative, the geniuses ....maybe we have to go fully through this era, for music to develop.

Meanwhile I will spend a lot of my time and attention to keep on watching guys like Rick, to remind me of what used to be, what used to make me both happy and sad at the same time, but what used to make me feel alive.

If you read so far - thank you - I'll end my ramble

I would say this might be similar to someone who has never played an instrument, for the example, let's say a guitar, messing around with it for a few hours for a few days and determining because they can't play it, the guitar doesn't sound very good at all. They don't seek out examples of where a guitar sounded great to them, then take the time to learn what has to be done to create what they like.

I can say that it's BY FAR not as easy to make a decent song as people seem to want it to be. Musician or not. It's a whole new set of skills and thinking differently than you maybe have before about writing a song. Also, the technology becoming more user friendly will help. There are some pretty unintuitive hoops to jump through to get a decent result. Even at that, it takes many attempts.

Personally, I don't find it easier to write a song using various A/I tools. I think it is actually harder in certain aspects. In other aspects though, it can help tremendously. Combining A/I technology, with the SKILL of prompting (which isn't overly simple), and most of all, the HUMAN side of it, I believe works well. It's just not a push a button get a song thing by a long shot. If you understand composition, lyric writing, song structure, and especially production, it can really help. From watching others though, I feel many musicians greatly over-estimate their skill proficiency in several of those arenas when approaching this technology.

Just my opinion on this. Ultimately that's all any of this have on the matter is our opinions.

+1

I have seen and heard this "Artificial Yes, Intelligent, No" sentiment a few times over the years.
And when I've challenged such folks to a "You vs AI" battle of the minds, they and I both know they wouldn't stand a chance against an AI bot in the same way they wouldn't stand a chance in an earth moving competition with a bulldozer.

Anti-technology and folks that cannot understand technology have always been with us.

After all:
"If man were made to fly, he would have been born with wings"
"The earth is not a globe."
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
“There’s no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance.”

Steve, you forgot to add "I'll never use a mouse"!

This may be a little if track, but other people have been a little off track, so I guess I'm allowed to do it too. So here goes.

As a multi-instrumentalist and someone who has spent a large part of his life playing in numerous bands, and in recording sessions with bands, including bands that I have fronted, I take a lot of joy in playing instrumental tracks myself just because I think it's fun.

However, I have never had a problem with people making music in any other fashion that they would like, even if they just choose to bang on a trash can lid or use banging on a trash can lid loops. What difference does it make, it's a free country.

I am sure that there are many artists out there who are legitimately using all the AI tools at their disposal to come up with something creative, while still trying to stay within the bounds of the law and not deliberately steal from other artists. And I'm sure for many their intentions are good.

I just have not had that many interactions with songwriters who do not play an instrument at some level and use that instrument as they are working through the craft of writing a song. That is not to say there aren't such people out there, I just haven't really mingled with songwriters who aren't musicians as well but that's just me. Again I'm not saying there isn't another way to do it, I'm just saying that's the way most people I know do it.

Also, all of the songwriters that I interact with have some sort of spiritual force inside of them that is trying to express itself in an original way. They actually agonize over the lyrics that they write and the shape and form of the music they create until it reaches a state of perfection and they feel that it is a unique expression of their own 1 and 7 billion personhood.

I think all of them in that group I'm defining would say that AI is absolutely anathema to their artistic personality.

I've even had some of them complain about my use of Band in a Box for backing tracks although I usually play numerous tracks on numerous instruments and synths myself on every song I put out. Some of them think that any use of something that's not real is not legitimate but I think that's a little bit snotty and unrealistic. When I try to explain to them that a backing track is a backing track and I see nothing at all wrong with using band in a box if I can't find a bass player or drummer at any particular moment they still don't understand me. But c'est la vie.

For me, the creation of music is just an avenue for the generation of personal joy. If other people like it and have fun with it that's cool, if they don't like it that's cool too. The main reason I do what I do in music is just because it makes me feel good. And I will just keep on doing it for that reason and no other reason.

And I have no interest whatsoever in surrendering that joy to a computer or a machine.

I would rather play computer video games than do that and I've never played a single video computer game in my entire life.

Just my two cents.

David, amen, brother...

Thanks for saving me the time of typing this out. You pretty much expressed exactly how I feel.

Also I would add - It was bad enough that prior to AI, music was being distilled down to a "formula" of what would sell. AI is accelerating that process and before long there will just be that one, sad, last string of notes that are the accepted way we are told music should sound . . .

Not sure if I totally agree with this. My thought is there will always be a demand for passionate, honest music played with soul and emotion, and packed with intelligent sonic language.

Want some examples of such great human-made music played with passion and skill?
Jump over to the Snarky Puppy thread.

"My thought is there will always be a demand for passionate, honest music played with soul and emotion, and packed with intelligent sonic language."

Indeed.

Demand is certainly relative. We love Americana, blues, blues rock, old school country, bluegrass, classic rock, folk rock, some jazz and more. Almost every day we are exposed via Spotify, Apple Music and YouTube to artists we had never listened to but very much like. And most often these are newer artists. So they survive by being "in demand" albeit it on a lesser scale. I won't go on a "soul and emotion" rant but, yes, that is the key. And frankly one either gets that or they don't. And, no, I am not anti-tech when it comes to music. Heck were it not for well designed algorithms used by the afore mentioned sources we listen to we would not be exposed to these artists. FWIW Spotify’s “DJ” absolutely nails the music we enjoy.

BTW Kudos to those who do such amazing work with synth vocals. But to our ears they typically sound like modern pop singers. And if that’s the goal then job well done.

Bud

One thing's for certain - there's no going back from here.

Ever since the Industrial Revolution in England and probably before that, the Luddites and others have tried in vain to halt progress. Whether you perceive the progress to be good, or bad, makes no difference when it comes to trying to prevent it. The present lawsuits are likely to suffer the same fate. As David Cuny (for whom I have a great respect) pointed out, the Ai computer does little more than listen to the radio and learn how to write songs. Sorry, David if this is an oversimplification of your excellent and detailed explanation. This is pretty much how I learned to do it and I suspect many others did too. How often do you hear an Artiste talk about their influences? If you are going to stop the Ai machine listening to copyrighted music, then it follows that you must also stop the general public from listening too, in case they become influenced and maybe start to play guitar like BB King (I wish).

I've been working with both computers and music for most of my life and was still unprepared for the sudden improvement in Ai generated music. I confess to having tried it out and been startled at the sheer quality. Now I'm trying to work out how I can embrace this format, because if I try to dismiss it, or pretend that it will go away, I think I'll simply go mad.

ROG

Are you trying to be funny, Steve?

I've been using AI tools in music production since 2018 and know them pretty well—not for songwriting, of course but there are plenty of other uses. If you watch cable TV, listen to YouTube, use a cell phone, send and receive email, you are using technologies that have my fingerprints from when Silicon Valley and AT&T were my day gigs. Though long retired from that grind, I still consult to Apple now and then.

Your condescending blend of arrogance, insults and ignorance is getting pretty old.

Well technology is pandoras box.
There's a line between me taking my guitar.
and playing a new song that I just wrote. The drummer is going to play his part and will change it or alter it according to my request, same as the other players. Much like BIAB
So I figure I've written the song.But If I enter 50 words and a program completes the song lyrics solos arrangement chord pattern, everything, I really had almost nothing to do with ut.
End if any of you have heard the quality.
Of the generated instruments in any of these apps. I'm sure you are or would be amazed.

I would love to see p g music incorporate this new technology.
WSS

It's crazy how AI is already causing such problems. I'm afraid to think what will happen in 5-10 years. Especially from the legal point of view.

I found a book on AI litigation that I think should clarify some of the loops. I'll get on with reading it, and I'll keep you updated if I find anything interesting.
Here's the book: https://www.amazon.com/AI-Litigation-Navigating-Legal-Challenges-ebook/dp/B0D372Z2QR