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import frozen SGU from Biab
don't add functions that a DAW can do, keep it simple
now it plays direct, allow track edit to give other DAWs non destructive editing of BB files like Reaper
Plugin be able render instructions to wav when using WAV Instructions only
48khz 24bit RT RD source files for studio DAWs that work in this format
internal generate code allowing for crossplatform and iPad version at the same time without another 6 months labor and wait
That's what I can think for now, you can add more you think it needs.
Let Biab, RealBand and Power Tracks go where they like but have 1 modern professional studio quality product that matches the quality of the session musicians there in.
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... How the Plugin needs to work, self-contained crossplatform Plugin/Plugin Standalone/Live Arranger Win,Mac,Lin,iOS,Android:JUCE is a cross platform framework allowing a single codebase to compile to native applications and plug-ins with the same user experience on Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS and Android, across both desktop and mobile. Native applications can be launched in the iOS and Android device simulators to simplify testing and debugging, and can be packaged up for distribution within the mobile app stores. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27970&filename=BBvst-Self-Code2.png)
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FWIW here are my ideas for a successful PGM:
1-take everything in BiaB and merge it with RB.
2-take everything in BiaB sans the DAW sections and merge it with the VSTi.
Those two pieces of software would, IMHO, satisfy both user camps. It would also cut down on the MAC and Win development times.
I know that I am probably in the minority but I believe doing this would improve the products. YMMV
I've accidentally swallowed a load of scrabble pieces. My next trip to the toilet could spell trouble.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Every year BiaB software is "almost there, but not yet". Good recordings, many overlapping pieces of software to use them: Main BIAB. The DAW plugin. Real Band (required for example to export harmonies). Even a "plugin-standalone". Plus your DAW of choice (because for a high % of users, Real Band is far from the best generic DAW). Some handy scripts. Many functions are half-implemented, some documented features were broken years ago. And apparently there are not enough resources to solve them yet. I understand that developping for Intel and Apple Silicon makes this almost twice as complex. The DAW plugin does not have any written documentation (an old manager used to tell my team "software is complete when tested and documented").
My first attempt this year was again frustrating. I spent too many hours like every year. But this time I gave up on time. I used the money-back guarantee, and I re-installed 2024 Omnipak (I miss 5% of the contents). I have a workflow that covers an acceptable % of the functionality, but at least I do know which exact % works and does not work.
If the software evolves in the right direction in 2026, I'll support again by purchasing the latest and greatest RealTracks.
To me the right direction would be a working plugin to assemble music by referencing the pieces and bits in the recordings. With solos, melodies, multi-riffs, harmonies, tempo changes. A demo volume that works. A really functional GUI, no need for aesthetics. Written documentation (ctrl+"f" does not work inside youtube). No need to add links to AI to generate a picture of the album cover!
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Originally we just had the biannual release of Biab and RealBand, then they spent time moving the Biab generate code over to Mac, then every year they spend 6 months after the Win version release transferring the new code for the new features to Mac, whereas the Mac 2025 Plugin/Plugin Standalone is now ready due to the crossplatform JUCE and could be used with the current 2024 bbw4.app, if they spend a bit of time moving the generate code now to C++ JUCE this will give far greater advantage overall than when the Generate code was moved to Mac. JUCE doesn't take 6 months to compile to another OS, not complex. Why does no one see this ? JUCE is a cross platform framework allowing a single codebase to compile to native applications and plug-ins with the same user experience on Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS and Android, across both desktop and mobile. Native applications can be launched in the iOS and Android device simulators to simplify testing and debugging, and can be packaged up for distribution within the mobile app stores.
JUCE is the most widely used framework for audio application and plug-in development. It is an open source C++ codebase that can be used to create standalone software on Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS and Android, as well as VST, VST3, AU, AUv3, AAX and LV2 plug-ins.
JUCE allows developers to focus on the most valuable parts of their software by taking care of the differences between operating systems (both desktop and mobile) and plug-in formats. With JUCE’s library of digital audio processing (DSP) building blocks you can quickly prototype and release native applications and plug-ins with a consistent user experience across all supported platforms. Using JUCE also future-proofs your products against operating system and plug-in host updates.
JUCE makes it easy to create both standalone audio applications or plug-ins that can be loaded inside digital audio workstations (DAWs) like Logic, Live, Pro Tools, FL Studio or Cubase. A single JUCE project can be used to create VST, VST3, AU, AUv3, AAX and LV2 plug-ins from the same source code, and also provides the functionality required to host these plug-in formats in your own software.
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JUCE doesn't take 6 months to compile to another OS, not complex.
Why does no one see this ? I can't speak for PGM, of course, but it may be that the issue is not JUCE itself, but the time, effort and risk needed to port across to using JUCE. Another possible is that they put a lot of time, work and effort into porting to Delphi, only to then see it sidelined a bit and they're cautious about similar again. Don't forget that Embarcadero claim "Native Apps For Any Device From One Codebase With Delphi!" and it still takes PGM 6 months to release the Mac version. And the Win/Mac applications are still a bit different from each other. We have no visibility of what other contraints PGM may have.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Remember how 64bit was put off and put off for so long until Apple went to 64bit only, then right away PG come out with a BBWin 64bit then the Mac 64bit. If they don't do it soon something unforeseen will push them into it as before where they have no choice.
A away to get more than 255 bars and RealTimeSignatures that will match a DAW.
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What was I just saying ? and I just got this in an email, that has to be a message ! it's like HELLO: But 13 years is a very long time in this industry and we are faced with the fact that the platform that AATranslator is built on is showing its age and as such we are finding it increasingly difficult to support or add features that we know you would like.
The good news is that for the last 18 months we have been re-writing AATranslator (AATranslator2) using a more modern language and a more powerful platform. AATranslator can translate DAW session projects to other DAW's.
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PG would have to go the JUCE way to get a Linux version otherwise they would need another 6 months in a year to make the Linux version, so you would need a 18 month year, 24 months for iPad, 30 months for Android also...... Going JUCE will give iPad/Android as well all at the same time. If these run, Biab should run: The Top 4 DAWs for iPad Best DAW for Android It all just seems like a no brainer, I really can't see Biab lasting into the future how it is now without development of something new in parallel behind the scenes. After seeing Logic for iPad with a chord track and AI session musicians that play along to it, the writing is most definitely on the wall.
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Remember how 64bit was put off and put off for so long until Apple went to 64bit only, then right away PG come out with a BBWin 64bit then the Mac 64bit. If they don't do it soon something unforeseen will push them into it as before where they have no choice.
A away to get more than 255 bars and RealTimeSignatures that will match a DAW. I wasn't involed, but I'm not surprised. PGM seem always to be behind the curve, whilst I've always tried to anticipate where the curve will likely next go and to arrange software and to a lesser extent hardware, so that I don't lock myself in anywhere. The 255 bar limit is probably the ultimate example of PGM's inertia. I'm shocked that they even did it in the first place, never mind that it's still there. It would have been easy and fairly harmless to make it 32k or combine tio items into a single 16-bit word, or even have reserved the value 255 for a "grab another octet" option. Similarly with time signatiures ... the fact that it's possible to make passable workarounds doesn't make it the right way to do things. I do share your frustration, though I'm sure you're far more frustrated about these things than I. I do though also have experience with the "Oh [redacted], we really need to fix this, but the work needed is absolutely huge.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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The good news is that for the last 18 months we have been re-writing AATranslator (AATranslator2) using a more modern language and a more powerful platform. The odd thing about this is that for so many purposes the most secure language for longevity is C/C++. It's been around since the 70s and has had some excellent enhancements whilst still remaining close to the original. I started with is around 1980 and still use it as my first choice for most deep things. That's not to say that I don't use a number of other languages, usually those like Python/Ruby/Tcl. But I can still go back to code from the 80s, change it and compile it. And generally I can choose whether or not I want to add in the enhancements.
Last edited by Gordon Scott; 01/16/25 03:10 AM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Gordon...
lmao...nah assembler all the way...
i hate all the distributables re some compilers....more bloat.
i like compilers that create standalone exe's....and no run times to worry about.
for someone getting into programming lots of free compilers out there.
i normally recommend and its not expensive something like purebasic.com.
tell me what you think Gordon.
the problem with programming for windows...i dunno about linux and others like mac os...but its the win api's.frankly that a programmer has to deal with that limits often what a win programmer can do seems to me.
only so much that a programmer can do given the limitations of any os.
even tho' pg comes in for aggro from some quarters i respect pg for how far they have brought bb and rb given what they have to work with.. this stuff isnt trivial imho.
as to the 255 bar limit...maybe pg intended that rb be used if more than 255 bars
was needed ?? ive always viewed bb as the rough scratchpad for songs and rb for flushing out the rest of the song.
i think to be fair to pg...as pg were trying over the years to keep users happy more and more additions/bolt ons (?) realised now some complaints re gui and other aspects that irk users.
but Gordon as you and i know its a heck of a challenge producing apps that keeps all users happy. we had same probs in industry as some users here complain about...ie bolt on after bolt on...and on one legacy app for example it got so big that
to do a new from the ground up re-write was impossible due to often prohibitive costs.
imho the 'new' bb will prolly turn out to be the bb vst plugin/standalone constantly improved over time. and 'old' bb will still be maintained for those long time users that want it ?? we shall see.
frankly as you and i know Gordon users cant ask for all the time more and more features without problems for the tech coding teams often.
in industry i would always respond to user complaints with...
'if you think you can do a better job take some programming courses and then youll appreciate somewhat the challenges for us app development groups.'
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/16/25 04:28 AM.
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lmao...nah assembler all the way...
i hate all the distributables re some compilers....more bloat.
i like compilers that create standalone exe's....and no run times to worry about. This is now way off topic, so I'll keep it short. I've tested several compilers against the code I'd create in assembler and there's usually not much difference ... sometimes the compiler does a better job than me, especially after a change to the code. Only when I must be assured of the absolute quickest or smallest will I spend time at assembler level. There are also lots of different CPUs and assemblers and I can't hope to be best at all of them, especially when working cross-platform. Yes, lots of distributable libraries have bloat. Better to compile the libraries for the task than load a distibutable one, but pragmatism is relevant here.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Gordon...
re 'way off'...well the op DID mention dev tools.
as to the future...heres what i would like...
1..flac for recording and playback across all apps.
2..more AI...but what i mean is 'applicable' 'artfull' intelligence.
currently lots of hype re AI. AI as you know isnt magic...behind it is still programming code etc.
by 'applicable' intelligence i mean any feature that makes life things easier for the song creator and also targets the poor musicians out there and saves the poor guy or gal money.
for example i'll be impressed with AI when i can record a electric guitar solo and if the sound quality is junk cos i'm useing a junk guitar amp cos i'm a poor muso i can now say 'ok AI gimme the sound of the lead break to xxx famous rock song lead break useing my notes'....lol.
another example might be in the pg picker say 'ok picker give me the drum sound of xxx famous song' etc etc....and AI trots off and creates such.
in summary not AI everywhere thats gonna bloat up the music app and thus cause probs on a junky pc but 'clever' AI with clever features.
om
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..................................................
as to the 255 bar limit...maybe pg intended that rb be used if more than 255 bars
was needed ?? ive always viewed bb as the rough scratchpad for songs and rb for flushing out the rest of the song.
..................................
om om my friend, the 255 bar limit was way before RB was even thought of, i.e. since the very beginning of BiaB. As you well know 255 is the upper limit of 8 bit programming, i.e. 11111111. Note that I use BiaB as a scratch pad for my DAW also and I believe a number of users use BiaB in the same way. Have a great day.
I've accidentally swallowed a load of scrabble pieces. My next trip to the toilet could spell trouble.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I did mean only my comments on assemblers vs compilers.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Mario.
good point re limit.
although a lovely idea...i personally dont think we will ever see a complete top to bottom rewrite of bb....
(note Mario the above is not in response to bb comments made by you or other users in the past....its just my personal observation based on my past systems experiences..)
we had the same problem in industry with legacy systems....
it was just too too much of a major undertakeing at the technical level.
for this reason many institutions major systems still run old code from many years past.
imho in some ways pg was tween a rock and a hard place in the past...
ie acceeding to users wishes re features or not....so 'bolt ons' occur as a result of keeping many diverse users happy.
its a problem for many developers from my experience.
i suspect the new bb vst plugin and standalone will gradually be enhanced to be the new improved biab. as its obviously new code.
it certainly makes sense...we shall see.
respect for your talents Mario.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/16/25 09:03 AM.
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As you well know 255 is the upper limit of 8 bit programming, i.e. 11111111. Aye. Though very few 8-bit computers were limited to that by 1990. IBM-PCs and Atari-STs were both at least 16-bit friendly by then. I suspect the main concern was disc space. I bought my first home PC in '91 or '92, based on an AMD 386SX-40 and a 10M hard drive. I struggle still to understand why, even then, PGM limitted to 8-bit? Why right through SG1, SG2 and so on? Crazy?
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Gordon.
re 255 limit why ??
ive often wondered that too. only pg can answer this.
yet rb does more than 255 bars. why rb and not bb ??
frankly i typical do 3 minute or so songs around 120 bars max...
so its not an issue but obviously it is for some users.
one thing i would like to see if we are talking the future is more commonality of screens between bb and rb. eg bb and rb track views.
give my regards to old blighty...lol.
om
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RealBand gets bbw2 to generate up 255 bars without an ending, renders to wav files, inserts in RB tracks,
then bbw2 renders up bars 256.....on without a count-in, inserts into racks.
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" rb does more than 255 bars. why rb and not bb ?" RealBand is derived from PowerTracks Pro which Jeff Yankauer created, I think, prior to joining the PG Music organization so he may not have been aware of any constraints set by PG Music if there are any. Additionally, many times DAW limits are set by the operating system or embedded in programming language development tools, not consciously set by the developer.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1125e) RB (Build 4) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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.......
Note that I use BiaB as a scratch pad for my DAW also and I believe a number of users use BiaB in the same way.
Have a great day. Me too! At the end of so much struggling this is the way I ACTUALLY use BiaB. To develop ideas, then I susbtitute instruments in my DAW. Which means (as you say) that any version can do the job. So I returned BIAB 2025.
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PGM limitted to 8-bit? Why right through SG1, SG2 and so on? Crazy? Of course we're presuming here that the limit is in an 8-bit item, but there are other ways a 2^8 limit can be reached.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
.
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The way to fix all the old limitations with Biab generation is put the code into C++ JUCE, fixes everything. I showed it done in Reaper, no 255 limit, no fake time signatures, audio, midi or video if I generate up 6/8, 5/4, 12/8 track it will fit the DAW time signature and existing tracks ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=29942&filename=Reaper-Instant-Traks.png)
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Once you get the track edit view, rather than a big picker window have a simple picker that is docked in the VST and just drag n drop the tracks you want where you want on the timeline, these can be copied, re positioned, resized, previewed, regenerated single item selected items or all items, they will drop as 1 bar and can right click > Entire Track You can set the color of the item for a quick visual to see where it repeats on the timeline You can adjust the volume for one section of a RealTrack or adjust the same for all occurrences of that RealTrack These can be in a lane under the actual waveform sections track ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=29956&filename=BB25-Plugin-Track-Edit.gif) ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=29957&filename=BBPlugin-Drag-N-Drop-RT.gif)
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Now in the Plugin in Reaper I have disabled all wav generation but bbw4 is still filling up with RAM as the tracks are generated.
When it's set for no wavs bbw4 should be just reading the wav instructions from the XT2 ST2 and not decompressing wma files into RAM. If I put a fake empty RealTracks directory, Biab will generate up all the track data without loading any wma.
This should be quicker when you don't need wav renders. If you could disable that some way it would be good.
You have a Render Tracks option in the Style Picker to give wavs if needed.
But really you need to get that generate code in the Plugin.
There are AI code converters now, don't know if that is feasible ?
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows® Today!
If you’ve already purchased Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®, great news—a new update is now available! This update introduces a handy new feature: a vertical cursor in the Tracks window that shows the current location across all tracks, and more.
Discover everything included in this free update and download it now at https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1124
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator
With Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®, we've introduced an exciting new feature: the AI Lyrics Generator! In this video, Tobin guides you step-by-step on how to make the most of this new tool.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Boot Camp: The AI Lyrics Generator video.
Check out the forum post for more information.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows® now includes support for VST3 plugins, bringing even more creative possibilities to your music production. Join Simon as he guides you through the process in this easy-to-follow demonstration!
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using VST3 Plugins
Join the conversation on our forum.
Video: Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows: Using The BB Stem Splitter!
In this video, Tobin provides a crash course on using the new BB Stem Splitter feature included in Band-in-a-Box 2025® for Windows®. During this process he also uses the Audio Chord Wizard (ACW) and the new Equalize Tempo feature.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows®: Using the BB Stem Splitter
Check out the forum post for some optional Tips & Tricks!
Congrats to Misha (Rustyspoon)…downloaded/installed a full Audiophile 2025!
Breaking News!
We’re thrilled to announce that Rustyspoon has made PG history as the very first person to successfully complete the download and install of the full Band-in-a-Box 2025 Windows Audiophile Edition (with FLAC files)—a whopping 610GB of data!
A big shoutout to Rustyspoon for stepping up to be our test "elf!"
Thank you for your support, Rustyspoon!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows Videos
With the launch of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows, we're adding new videos to our YouTube channel. We'll also share them here once they are published so you can easily find all the Band-in-a-Box® 2025 and new Add-on videos in one place!
Whether it's a summary of the new features, demonstrations of the 202 new RealTracks, new XPro Styles PAK 8, or Xtra Styles PAKs 18, information on the 2025 49-PAK, or detailed tutorials for other Band-in-a-Box® 2025 features, we have you covered!
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Videos - we will be updating this post as more videos are added!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until December 31, 2024! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Windows 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
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