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Here I added it all to a super easy GUI design creator free to download and use http://www.webpage-maker.com/load this template into WPM: BB25-Theme-WebPageMaker.zip use shift click to select more than one, drag n drop images into WPM workspace will zoom in/out with mouse+Ctrl copy elements from one page to the other, add new pages you can add text boxes, click on text boxes then use color picker to color, add color boarder by right click Properties resize, move, layer color background by clicking background then selecting color picker you can preview in browser or just take a screen shot you can use your normal editor instead as they are just images, or you can use https://www.gimp.org/find any other source images here C:\bb\Data\Images\MainScreenButtons you can use free https://www.irfanview.com/ to save in other formats, like the bpm with the pink transparent you can save to gif or png and click on the pink color in the save dialog, this will save as transparent gif or png you can use print-Screen button on keyboard that paste in irfanview, then select area and ctrl+y to crop ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=29875&filename=BB25-GUI-WPM.gif)
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Just the GUI parts is pretty easy. The hard part is making all of the guts of the application(s) work cleanly with the GUI, update other windows properly, not have unexpected side-effects, and sp on, especially when the existing guts were not written with sucg a GUI in mind. It takes a lot of thought, planning and preparation. It can feel like one has a large, challenging mountain to climb with many risks of falls. Doing a major redesign can be scary. In my experience it usually goes far better than one fears, but not always. How confident would one be if the redesign estimate was five man-years of work? Or ten? Or thirty? One of the issues with using 'builders' is that sometimes the builders don't keep up with progress and are superceded in ways that aren't always easy to accomodate. I've had a superb GUI buillder just not be updated for years due to low uptake because the underlying programming language went out of fashion. I now have a GUI product that I can't update without a total rewrite from the ground up! And I cannot justify doing that.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Point is it's doable and it's not a rocket science. Nothing personal, but that phrase always irritates. "Rocket science" is actually fairly easy. Much more complex is the maths around navigation and control. The space shuttle was controlled by five computers, each with power not much greater that a very good pocket calculator and all doing much the same thing. The control surfaces were all drive by hydraulics with five independent systems, each driven by one of the computers. The hydraulics formed a voting system, so that provided a majority of the computers agreed and most of the hytdraulics were OK, three or more systems would overpower the other(s).
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Mario,
Even mighty Cakewalk with heavy cash injection from wealthy Kuok Khoon Hong family kept most of old code (some from decades ago). Instead of a re-write, they focused on UI and workflow! new level. Misha my friend that maybe true but my point is that Cakewalk didn't leave bugs in their software for years like PGM. Because of that issue I think PGM is locked into old code and that is why they can not change or find the problems. Cakewalk also didn't incorporate new features that were not ready for prime time. A bug or two that was immediately fixed. Don't get we wrong. Virtually all of my songs start in BiaB and I really like PGM. But the competition is gaining ground. A number of companies have passed BiaB's MIDI side and I'm sure it will not be long before some company will issue a RT like program. I feel that if BiaB stays like it is with long time bugs and convoluted menus, GUI, and not ready for prime time features then the company is doomed, much like Slim Pickens riding the nuclear bomb. That is just my opinion and YMMV.
I've accidentally swallowed a load of scrabble pieces. My next trip to the toilet could spell trouble.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I am sorry, but I have to excuse myself from this conversation. I stopped seeing the main point of it.
Who's fault is it that company didn't adopt to norms when everybody else did? Mine? How hard it is? I guess it's not a one day job. Why should I feel pitty or forgiving?
Blame lies equally on PGM for being blind to the issue and on those anti progress, forgiving, or conservative users who let this come to this stage.
With MTP and other non modal tools in 2024 I thought that trend of UI nonsense is finally reversing, I guess I was wrong.
Again, I don't believe PGM has a luxury of time it had 10-15 years ago to play games.
_______________
Mario,
Cakewalk actually fixed great many old bugs when BL took over. You are right about half baked features. That is a problem. But the biggest problem is not the release of those half done things (that happens with other companies), but because they leave it hanging without coming back and completing features the next cycle.
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 01/12/25 07:02 AM.
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I am sorry, but I have to excuse myself from this conversation. I stopped seeing the main point of it. A apologise if I was a factor in that. AFAICS PGM have been avoiding the GUI+usability issues for years and years. The longer they ignore them the harder it gets.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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@Rustyspoon# Don’t give up! We all have gotten off track from the Topic a little, including me! Sometimes these are things we cannot control. To everyone I’m gonna start by making an open statement and a summary of these post and what we would like to see. All we are asking is to fix some inconsistencies with BiaB and some GUI changes to allow Users to better manage BiaB. Some of the earlier post show how just moving things around can make BiaB look less cluttered, hence, easier to use. As far as cost, let PGM decide that, it’s really none of our business!So what I and many users would like to see is…. 1) A cleaner Main screen (See earlier post for image example). 2) All the windows be made floating and allow users to place them where you want and stay there. So that when you reopen BiaB it’s in the place you set it (Also see point #4) 3) Change the Preferences screen (See earlier post for image example) to a menu system and better group things and remove redundant windows. 4) Allow user to float toolbars and other parts of BiaB, It’s best to have Dockers that the Toolbars could be in as well, with tabs at the bottom to quickly switch between that could also be floating. Larger Dockers could also have more than 1 window in them with tabs below.
Let’s also keep this about BiaB only.Now below is a image on the Main screen of BiaB, showing the following 1) Areas in gray at the top are fixed showing the open/save options, to the Left are fixed icons (buttons) that control (Open/Close) windows in the main window (Green area) 2) The blue area is for wherever PGM feels should go there. 3) The Red areas are for toolbars (See earlier post showing how clean the GUI is, doing this) 4) Any window that opens in the green area should be able to float if the user wants. ![[Linked Image from ]]( https://i.imgur.com/DKLYND6.png) Please let’s keep this on the topic of the "GUI" that we want is see, If I messed something and/or want me to try and make a image of something, let me know. I’m open to ideas! Also please, let’s not make references to another DAW, this is only about BiaB. Robert 
Last edited by robertw; 01/12/25 10:18 AM.
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As far as "Fonts", I really do not think everyone would agree what's best, Let PGM have control on the Fronts.The only Font that I see users should be allowed to change is the track names for example: Guitars to GuitarsRobert
Last edited by robertw; 01/12/25 10:28 AM.
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Many of the complaints expressed in this thread have been detailed beginning in Section 4 in this paper written last year. BiaB White Paper If a code re-write is being considered to modernize the GUI, harnessing AI to do the grunt work may make sense. Apparently, a free trial is available. Watsonx
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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As far as modular GUI goes, I offered a few suggestions in this thread: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=838007#Post838007The idea is customizing existing Mixer Tab group panels to include just those things that user wants. User should be able to "detach" each tab and use it as it's own "floating" non-modal entity. Either reposition on single screen or move to secondary screen. Similarly this approach can be done for more compact tools like Shots, Holds, Rests, Partial regeneration dialog - combining existing two(!), Micro Chords, etc. For most of other items, large size Tab groups. I was glad to see Songs, Patches and Titles added to MTP, but it saddened me that "Lyrics" and "Chords" were added in same group. These do not belong in library. In my view, if PGM liked the tabbed idea, they should of build on that and have separate clusters of tabbed items. To future proof the idea, it should be made modular. For example any two or more items could be made into one tabbed cluster, as I shown in this video: -
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I am sorry, but I have to excuse myself from this conversation. I stopped seeing the main point of it. A apologise if I was a factor in that. As do I Misha. It was not my intent to upset you and if I did I apologize.
I've accidentally swallowed a load of scrabble pieces. My next trip to the toilet could spell trouble.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I am sorry too, got a bit hot. Mario, you are the last person in PGM world I would get upset of I guess, my position on the whole UI / Workflow is this: I believe it's very doable to fix existing bugs - all it will take is time and care. UI very likely could be made modular. It took Cakewalk good two years to rewrite everything in vector. I don't expect PGM to do it overnight. User opinions should be seriously weighted on, as they will be the ones using it. The most flexible options = less whining. It could be rolled out in stages. Main page, Track view, Piano roll view, etc. Aside from common sense bug fixing, clear worded, well sorted menus there should be a common denominator. One idea that could be applied to many different aspects of the program. Seems tabbed items, whether tools, buttons was/is popular with PGM: Tabbed tool bar on upper right, Mixer cluster, MTP. That could work for other areas too. As Robert suggested inspector like panel in one of the mock drawings, even that could be made into customizable tabbed group item that slides to the left when not needed into a thin strip. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/cJwhzghm/tabbedinsp.jpg)
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I believe it's very doable to fix existing bugs - all it will take is time and care. Yes ... and PGM's wilingness to do it. I do believe it's almost certainly a lot of work. It will take quite a lot of time and forethought and care. But yes, I'm also sure it's both doable and necessary. One of the biggest challenges seems to be convincing PGM of that.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
.
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Given how complex the program is it would be quite nice if there were presets on the GUI for different ways of using BIAB. For example, I *never* use it in a live setting so allow me to hide *all* features/screens/menus/etc. for live use. And I *never* use it for learning music so allow me to hide *all* music training features. Maybe provide a MIDI-mode where most of the screens & menus are MIDI and universal stuff. Likewise have a hide-all-MIDI option for those of us who never wish to use MIDI inside BIAB.
And one big point I'd like to make that has prolly been made before...improving the GUI *must* include *all* areas of the software! The main screen was improved a bit a few years ago but take a look at the Preferences window! OMG what a complex mess! This is a dialog screen that, in addition to a bunch of settings, also includes THIRTY BUTTONS that each launch their own dialog screen! My earlier suggestion to have presets would help here too because personally I will never need to touch about 95% of these settings and additional settings pages.
A new user will take one look at the Preferences screen and just give up! I am not a new user but here I am 12+ years later and I avoid even trying to deep dive and understand this screen!
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Given how complex the program is it would be quite nice if there were presets on the GUI for different ways of using BIAB. For example, I *never* use it in a live setting so allow me to hide *all* features/screens/menus/etc. for live use. And I *never* use it for learning music so allow me to hide *all* music training features. Maybe provide a MIDI-mode where most of the screens & menus are MIDI and universal stuff. Likewise have a hide-all-MIDI option for those of us who never wish to use MIDI inside BIAB.
And one big point I'd like to make that has prolly been made before...improving the GUI *must* include *all* areas of the software! The main screen was improved a bit a few years ago but take a look at the Preferences window! OMG what a complex mess! This is a dialog screen that, in addition to a bunch of settings, also includes THIRTY BUTTONS that each launch their own dialog screen! My earlier suggestion to have presets would help here too because personally I will never need to touch about 95% of these settings and additional settings pages.
A new user will take one look at the Preferences screen and just give up! I am not a new user but here I am 12+ years later and I avoid even trying to deep dive and understand this screen! YES, I Posted about earlier in this thread. https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=837866#Post837866But I think First things that should be done, are the same things Rustyspoon# said "Bugs" and "half baked features". to me their not bugs but unfinished things (half baked features). I would say first the minor unfinished things then the main GUI, toolbars & window movement and placement. Then move on to Preferences and other things. I would think the first few things would be the easiest to accomplish. Everyone also please let's concentrate only what is in BiaB already and that could be made better. New features can come later. Robert
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......As Robert suggested inspector like panel in one of the mock drawings, even that could be made into customizable tabbed group item that slides to the left when not needed into a thin strip. Great I idea, we could even put the Preferences in there as well, currently when the Preferences window is open you cannot do anything else in BiaB. So let's put it there! Robert
Last edited by robertw; 01/12/25 04:17 PM.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Windows® Today!
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